Pronouns - Can someone remind me why we are against this in emails

[landantan]

Hi

Can someone remind me why some people (likely myself included) does not agree with stated pronouns in email signatures?

It is being requested at work from the perspective of being a small step to being an ally to LGBTQ+ community.

I just think it is a bit pointless and whilst I have nothing against this or any other community I cannot see what knowing or sharing pronouns really does apart from make you look like a bit of a tit.

Can someone offer a more articulate explanation please?

You haven't been fucking respectful so I don't have to be.

I value sex based rights. I agree with you on spaces, prisons, sports...what more do you want?

Do you actually want me to say to my friend "no I'm not calling you he because thats not your sex based right"?

I studied criminology and people often asked me how people become terrorists. Ultimately, it's because people are turned against their society by using its flaws against them.

WIth attitudes like yours, you will never, ever get trans people on side (or people like me, who love and care about them). All you will do is push them further. You will not eradicate trans, and you will not win. But "women say no" right?

TRA's are no more responsible for the actions of genuine trans people than utter batshit feminists are for the rest of us. A woman allowed her baby to be murdered earlier this week, does that mean all women are bad?

Whereas back in the real world, my friend who just wants to be known by his chosen name and "he" would back you every day of the week on the sex based rights, but he doesnt fit into your little box so you wont let him.

Ironic that you dont believe you can change sex but you wont accept him because he wants to identfy as a man. Amazing.

We are never going to agree, and I'm just getting annoyed, so I will leave it here.

If it was your daughter, or friend, or loved one - would you actually say "I'm not calling you by your chosen name and I'm not calling you he".

of course you wouldn't.

But i have never once said I agreed with that. I don't. (and neither does my trans friend).

Doesnt mean I dont respect a trans person's right to use their name and be referred to as he or she. It's not as black and white as that.

The TRA's might be causing this divide but posters like above are not helping it - it becomes a game of he said she said well i say no i say no and who suffers?

Genuine trans people, and women, and the TRA's are laughing. What's the phrase - divide and conquer?

You're quite right. I should tell my friend sorry pal, you're not actually a boy, so I'm going to use your dead name and call you your dead name.

I'm an atheist, so perhaps I could remind my recently bereaved friend that God is a load of horseshit and her mums actually in the ground.

I work with kids so perhaps I could tell them that actually their drawing is a bit shit.

I could tell my boss he's an arrogant wanker and does my head in.

I could tell my friend her dress looks horrendous.

No?

Oh. So do we just save it for trans people, then?

If all the women who identify as women use she/her and all the men who identify as male use he/him, isn't that othering for those who identify as they/them? .

My title is Mrs, my first name is typically feminine with an ia ending. If anyone were in doubt about my pronouns I'd be very surprised.

We live in a sexist world unfortunately, and whilst we do, I will absolutely refuse to state pronouns in any context and especially in my (male dominated) workplace. The same way I refuse to ever volunteer to do any form of “wife work” in the workplace such as organising leaving cards/gifts and suggesting or arranging social events. And this includes getting involved in diversity events/recruitment bollox, as the token female. Been there done it. Waste of time. Let the blokes do it. They won’t, so it won’t happen, and so be it. I work in a super woke company but thankfully pronouns haven’t been mandated yet. I’m sure they will be eventually and I will firmly decline. Reaffirming that I am female can only do me harm. And when I see “he/him” I get a visceral reaction - as the oppressed usually do. (I also tend to think, what a prick.)
As for helping trans people, I work very well with trans people at work, and I don’t see how my pronouns are relevant. Incidentally I’m often misgendered (complicated name situation) and I couldn’t give two hoots. This nonsense really is just nonsense. And I’m saying No. Just No.

My name is appropriate for what?

Anyway if you call and insist on calling women who are not identifying as men 'cis', I'll carry on calling you a Borg member.

That's how it works, you disrespect our consideration that 'cis' is a slur and we come back at you. Perhaps if you cannot cope with people assigning you into a group you never asked to be assigned to, don't do it to us.

You haven't been fucking respectful so I don't have to be.

in what sense have I not been respectful? Is this about insisting on biological fact again? Is that what you call not respectful?

Do you actually want me to say to my friend "no I'm not calling you he because thats not your sex based right"?

Where have I said anything like that. They can call themselves what they want. It's the implication that the rest of us have to apply these terms to ourselves is the issue.

WIth attitudes like yours, you will never, ever get trans people on side (or people like me, who love and care about them). All you will do is push them further.

What? By insisting on fact? I'm not denying the reality of biology to 'be kind'. It's actually sinister.

Ironic that you dont believe you can change sex

I don't believe it because it's not scientifically possible.

but you wont accept him because he wants to identfy as a man. Amazing.

Id support him to live how he likes, while supporting others sex based rights. I've said that already. Is that a problem?

If it was your daughter, or friend, or loved one - would you actually say "I'm not calling you by your chosen name and I'm not calling you he"

And where did I say that?

Your grasp on reality seems a bit tenuous. You've attributing things to me I haven't said and seem incapable of seeing past emotion to have a reasoned debate. I'm very keen to discuss this rationally with people, it needs to be done.

I'm not remotely interested in anything you have to say. Dont waste your time.

Doughnut.

I didn't call anyone cis.

There's no we, you're the only one who totally misread my post

I'm not remotely interested in your opinion. Don't waste your time.

I'm an atheist, so perhaps I could remind my recently bereaved friend that God is a load of horseshit and her mums actually in the ground.

If you straight up lied to your friend about your belief in god, then I would find that a bit strange tbh. In the circs, it would be advisable to say nothing or very little, which I'm sure is that you'd do.

I work with kids so perhaps I could tell them that actually their drawing is a bit shit.

I could tell my boss he's an arrogant wanker and does my head in.

I could tell my friend her dress looks horrendous.

None of these examples involve muddying the water in a way that undermines someone else's rights, is the difference.

there's a huge contradiction in saying TWAW but also saying 'I respect sex designated spaces'. Which is it?

I'm not remotely interested in anything you have to say. Dont waste your time.

Well don't respond to their posts then. It's not arguing in good faith to answer them and then announcing you're blanking them.

You weren't respectful in that you responded to my post about a RL situation with "But you cant change sex".

Re your second pint - that's fine. You be 'right. But dont be surprised that you dont get anywhere.

re your third point - i understand you think that, but if you think that, then my friend is still a woman - is there a reason you won't therefore then be supportive?

Re your supporting him as his sex based rights - we agree. So does he. So what's the problem. I never asked you to give your own pronouns - i htink youl find that I said earlier upthread I don't think anyone should have to.

Re your final point - your response to my post about someone i know was "you cant change sex" so i can only assume you would say that to someone if you knew them and you can't pick on choose.

Re my grasp on reality - you are surely having a laugh with that one, given that my whole argument comes from knowing trans people.

I am up for having a reasoned debate but not when you are downrigth hurtful.

Re the rationa discussion and it needing to be done - echo chambers are all well and good, but you are only willing to have it with people who agree with you and thats the problem. This will never be solved in our lifetime. If I was in my friends shoes reading the stuff you write, I wouldn't want anything to do with your cause.

Sorry, but I think the rules are suspended given that the poster has spent the last hour or so calling me a "borg".

Re your first point no, of course I didnt lie. But when she said oh my mum is in a better place now I didnt say NO SHE ISNT.
which is what youre doing when I told you the story about my friend and your response was YOU CANT CHANGE SEX. Or would you not be bold enough to say that to his face?

Re your "undermining someone elses rights", my friend wanting to be known as he and a male name is not undermining your rights. Surely you are not that entitled.

Could you quote me where I said TWAW?

But stating men can be women and vice versa isn’t a harmless indulgence like reassuring somebody their deceased loved one is in heaven. It has serious consequences for women, in terms of their safety; for children, in terms of confusion over ‘gender identity’; and for truth, because if you say a man can be a woman, you’re stating something that we know to be impossible (in all fairness there’s more chance of heaven because we don’t know what happens after death).

you can’t just indulge it a little bit, either you sign up for the whole pseudo science nonsense or, like most of us, want to help people with their mental health issues but not pretend the earth is flat to keep them happy.

it's interesting that folk struggle with FTM conversation - given that the majority of TRA's are MTF and havent transitioned so are therefore a completely diferent argument altogether, but nope, trans is one big pot where its perfectly OK to say as you like. Can we apply the same logic to women, then?

You weren't respectful in that you responded to my post about a RL situation with "But you cant change sex".

Look we have to get past this position that stating the truth is hurtful or disrespectful. In a world where the TRA narrative is TWAW and respect for sex spaces is shot, it needs to be said. It does no one any favours to suggest that anyone can change sex. Honest debate starts with this point.

Of course you can.

It's not black and white, it's a whole umbrella, and the annoying thing is with the likes of @TheKeatingFive when it comes to things like spaces, sports, prisons etc I'm sure we (and my trans friend) would bloody agree, but the blinkers are on at the mention of the word trans.

But I didn't say that, and neither did my friend.

TRA's did.

Is it possible to have a debate without mentioning them? or do we need them because they are a "gotcha" card.

Because I would feel the same if we were asked to apply our religious viewpoints. I would be asked be a 'heathen' even though I am not religious personally so don't apply it to myself.

Do it if you want but I couldn't care less.

Plus the only people I have seen do it are men with obviously male names
who 'identify' as "he/him". And women with obviously female names with identity as "she/her". Virtue-signalling at its finest

Re your "undermining someone elses rights", my friend wanting to be known as he and a male name is not undermining your rights.

He may not be. The TRA movement certainly is. I'd like to see TG within that stand up to the stonewall narrative, but I'm not seeing a lot of that, in fairness. That's not in anyway a criticism of your friend, but a general observation.

Your friend staying preferred pronouns isn't a problem, but the expectation that everyone does it, is.

Oh, there goes TRA again.

I dont expect everyone to state pronouns and neither does he. So you and I are pretty much in the same boat.

If I mentioned the views of a batshit feminist, or as earlier the example of a woman who murdered her own child, then said "you must think that because you're a woman/feminist", that would be ridiculous.

So why the jump to TRA views?

Why should trans gender people stand up to the stonewall narrative when you spend your days writing about how much you dont accept them?! Why on earth would they?

Is it possible to have a debate without mentioning them?

They are unfortunately (for your friend as much as anyone) shaping the narrative right now. That's the elephant in the room

And while you're quick to say you didn't say that, you don't appear to like others stating that you can't change sex either.

Signing out for the night.

Oh no, did someone call you something you find offensive?

And yet you can't work out why we don't like being told 'the word for you is CIS'.