To be upset by what I heard from next door

[Everythingnotsavedwillbelost22]

My Neighbours have 2 young kids- eldest is about 2 and a 6 month old baby. DP and i went to a gig last night & our kids went on sleepovers and we got back late.

Anyway, we got in at about 1am and all I could hear was the mum shouting at the hysterical screaming older child- it sounded like the 2 year old had woken up, woken them up and wouldn’t go back to sleep (I could hear this thru the walls as we are terraces). She was shouting at the child to go back to sleep, the child was hysterical & it went on and on and on - then it sounded like she left the child on their own and the child was possible throwing themselves about as there was repetitive banging because she had left them in their room. This went on for 2 hours & kept me awake- I must have fallen asleep at about 3am.

it was AWFUl to hear it though- the was she was shouting at the child, the hysteria of the child etc. It’s really upset me as the child sounded so distressed, particularly the repetitive banging.

it’s not the first time either. Aibu to feel upset- what do you do?

People justifying ignoring children’s needs and shouting at them for hours because they ‘live in the real world’ I can assure you I also live in the real world, I just manage to have compassion for small children regardless of if it’s inconvenient.

yes I occasionally lose my temper or snap or shout or am grumpy. The difference is I repair as soon as possible with my children, I don’t normalise it or think it’s fine because I’m the supreme being and they have to not inconvenience me at all. It was my choice to have children so I will support them to the best of my ability and regulate my own emotions because I am the adult.

Leaving young children and babies to cry for hours raises their cortisol levels. Raised cortisol levels over time alters the development of the brain. Screaming at a child that is already possibly distressed is unlikely to help them settle, will not help them to regulate their emotions. Ignoring a child's needs however inconvenient creates distress and invalidates the child's emotions at a time when the child themselves lacks language to express themselves. This creates invalidation. Children who have been 'neglected' emotionally grow up to suffer depression, low self-esteem and poor mental health. This 'gift' of not giving keeps on giving right into adulthood too.

These early traumatic experiences alter brain development in all the regions of the brain that process emotions. More than that it also effect parts of the brain involved in planning and in learning. The child is left with a significant inability to learn. Ultimately very damaged anti social personalities, BPD, PD, NPD can probably all be traced back to the early years where the child is developing their personality.

All safeguarding training will point out that your duty is to report any concerns, even just suspicions. None of us can investigate our neighbours, and none of us are trained to. In my experience it isn't evil people that always do evil things. Sometimes good people do evil things. Most child protection is working with people who are not inherently bad, they are people who are ill equipped to cope, they struggle. It starts with sleep deprivation, PND, stress, money worries, lack of support from good role models, lack of hope, lack of opportunities, poor influences, ideas they hold to be true because its "Common sense" a culture where shouting is seen as not abuse. There has been some interesting research into how ordinary people turned a blind eye to death camps, how once you start to dehumanise the subject you no longer see the humanity in them, their pitiful begging and pathetic presentation leads the abuser to feel yet more contempt. This phenomena is seen in the very worst abuse cases where children have been killed by their care givers. But it is never a one off incident, it doesn't start with the sort of abuse that would cause death. It starts with shouting, punishing, neglect and ignoring, basic cruelties such as denying the child comfort.

I hope OP has reported.

Kids who are looked after don't scream night after night.

@MRex my son would scream for hours until about age 3, he'd just wake up and scream and scream. We always went to him. In fact he was in our bed to start with 90% of the time. Most of the time we couldn't comfort him, breastfeeding worked a bit. It was a living hell so just because you are lucky enough not to know anyone who this happened to doesn't meant it isn't true. I know a friend's child did / does it as well.

He now has a bunch of issues and I think it's because we couldn't comfort him so in his head he was effectively "neglected" as not having his needs met.

I agree, just because a child screaming is not within one persons experience it doesn’t mean that others do not experience this. It could take hours of trying to comfort and some scary behaviour before calm with mine. Very hard to manage. Staying calm yourself everyday and night when punching biting throwing things and banging doors etc is going on can be more than most people can easily do. The typical things that work with kids do not always work with sen kids and their ability to calm down can be lacking. The change between screaming and difficult behaviour and loving cuddly child can equally be quick when it happens. So a lovely close relationship punctuated by outbursts in phases when a child cannot regulate their emotions. There is just so little help in dealing with these behaviours even after diagnosis and repeated requests for help.

I just think talking and checking before reporting is helpful unless abuse has been seen or the child seems frightened or switched off. You may find she would welcome help and talking about it which would be a good indicator.

those saying ignore the screaming child because you need your sleep - how the heck can you sleep when a child is crying loudly enough to keep next door awake, surely if you value your sleep you do whatever you can [kindly] to shut them up, comfort them or get them back to sleep.

And it doesn't mean that you'll have a child that demands food, being up at stupid o'clock, whatever, as s/he grows older, mine didn't, either as children or adults, so you can't say all children will. Usually meeting the need means the need goes away.
Even little children know that distraught children need comfort, when my next-door neighbour left her baby to scream it woke us all up including my small son who was deeply distressed by hearing the poor child breaking her heart
What they have grown up to understand is that if someone is in distress, or needs help, you do what you can to help them. That's the sort of adult I hoped they'd become

Why are you expecting OP to be better at judging whether the child is at risk than social services? If there is a good reason why the child should regularly be shouted at and then scream for hours (and I'm really not going to be convinced this is a good outcome for any child), then social services can still help signpost to any additional support services in the area, most appropriate nursery for additional needs etc etc etc.

Because it is easy to misjudge a situation through a wall. How about showing a bit of care?

I do care, I care about the child's safety first, and the adults' feelings later.

This ^

The children's act states the child's needs are paramount.

We all have a duty under current guidance to report, not to make judgements, make excuses, give free passes, investigate or help out with tea and cakes.

Yes child’s needs are paramount. All actual abuse should be reported.
Judgements are being made about what is going on though. Sen kids can be hysterical and refusing to go to bed for hours no matter how much comfort and patience given. Did the mum just shout go to sleep after a really difficult number of hours on two occasions? Isn’t it just worth finding out before reporting someone to social services.

all I could hear was the mum shouting at the hysterical screaming older child- it sounded like the 2 year old had woken up, woken them up and wouldn’t go back to sleep (I could hear this thru the walls as we are terraces). She was shouting at the child to go back to sleep, the child was hysterical & it went on and on and on - then it sounded like she left the child on their own and the child was possible throwing themselves about as there was repetitive banging because she had left them in their room. This went on for 2 hours
Mum shouting "on and on", child hysterical. This is a TWO YEAR OLD. Stop projecting something that isn't there, this family need input that is not a neighbour.

Lol, took the words out of my mouth.

It sounds to me like the child was being abused. It’s not normal to shout and scream at a 2 year old. Not in anyones world. And the OP said it went on for 2 hours. You are really minimizing this.

Co-sleeping with the 2 year old is not some magic solution. At that age mine would make a beeline straight for the 6 month baby and would wake him up, leading to even more crying all round.

also the mother might be bed sharing with the 6 month old and it’s unsafe to add a toddler to that mix.

There's an awful lot of middle ground between cosleeping and yelling for ages at a sobbing 2 year old.

No, the OP said the child was being shouted at by the mum and then spent the next two hours banging about in their room after she had left, obviously having a tantrum. Not the same thing at all.

That is not normal at all and anyone who thinks it is needs help themselves.

I could hear my 5 year old crying so ran into the living room. His baby sister was hitting him with a wooden toy.
I said why didn't you stop her?
He said I can't tell her off she's just a baby she doesn't know any better.
He's 5 and would know that isn't right.

An adult screaming at a hysterical 2 year old? No.

Not sure how you could possibly infer that the child was left alone for any length of time?

Mum/Dad may eg have been gone a few minutes and/or swapped over and then back and sitting quietly in the corner of the room. Sometimes interacting with them makes them worse. Last summer during a heatwave my 3 yo was waking completely hysterical for a number of nights on the trot, completely out of character and it’s like he wasn’t even compos mentis, we were clueless as to how to deal with it and never really managed to find anything that helped. (It didn’t seem to be a night terror and) I’m sure we tried to ‘shout him out of it’ as well as every other approach. Scared it might happen again this week now I’ve stirred the memory!

And occasionally the littler one gets so worked up, the only way to defuse the situation is to leave the room and shut the door. And then within minutes he crashes out like a zombie. sometimes he screams for 2 hours before this point and cuddles/reassuring/reasoning etc all prove futile.

Cry it out / controlled crying is a supposed ‘method’ employed by many stressed out parents at one point or another, someone needs to get the word out if it is now classed as abuse!