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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be shocked that in the 21st century there's still a staggering amount of women who rely entirely on their husbands?

1000 replies

EllieRosesMammy · 24/06/2022 19:07

I see it far too often on MN, women saying their husbands have been cheating on them for years or treating them absolutely terribly, but saying they can't leave because they are entirely financially dependent on their husbands.

Is it just me who finds this mad in 2022? Or is it still normal for men to be 100% the provider of the household?

I just couldn't imagine being stuck in a rubbish situation simply because of money Confused

I am absolutely in no way slating stay at home mums, or house wives here either. I just believe all women should be self sufficient enough that if they're in a bad situation they can walk away

OP posts:
brookstar · 25/06/2022 19:52

Maybe by some biased researcher but not by the majority.

Do you think all researchers are biased? Or just the ones that don't agree with you?

PrincessMeg · 25/06/2022 20:13

@brookstar

As I’ve already explained - socialisation comes after sex differences, it’s the egg after the chicken in this case. Our natural biological differences which play out and cause gendered societies also unfourtunately tend to cause a socialisation which restricts peoples choices based on sex, or at least they have in the past. Though this will probably always continue to some extent hopefully in the future as now there will continue to be more choice for everyone. But those very real biological diffences will continue to exist because they aren’t brought to life by socialisation, rather that socialisation is the product of them.

PrincessMeg · 25/06/2022 20:16

@brookstar

I don’t think most are - and most fully admit that sex diffences in brain and hormones which affect the brain are very real. However I do think that for a long time sexist male researchers liked to overplay existing differences in the genders for their own purposes and currently some female researches (like the one you referenced) like to pretend they don’t exist for their purposes. It’s unfourtunate that supposedly scientific people delude themselves in this way but I guess that’s human nature.

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:17

The thing is you can find research and theories to pretty much back up anything.

Ultimately, human beings live in the real world fur a fairly short time. If you want to be with your children,, then that's how you feel and you're probably going to gravitate towards a man who understands that. You're hardly going to change your mind because of 'research.'

Marmitemother · 25/06/2022 20:19

winemedown · 25/06/2022 10:07

Do the SAHM know or care that they're choice means that another working mum may not get a promoted over a dad who has a woman at home prepared to do all the childcare? I've been in meetings where I've heard male managers talk about 'women who have a lot going on' and we all know what that means.

@winemedown

Unbelievable!!!

Are you really suggesting SAHM are responsible for working women failing to get promotion????😂🙄

brookstar · 25/06/2022 20:24

PrincessMeg
So do you believe that the reason women are over represented in education, retail and caring roles because is because of biology?
And men are over represented in senior leadership and management roles also because of biology?

And what about subject choices? Do more boys choose STEM subjects because of their biology?

What about during the pandemic.... we know that women took on the bulk of caring and homeschooling responsibilities even when they were working the same hours as their male partner. Was this biology? Did millions of women decide to fuck up their careers and mental health because of biology?
Or did societal expectations play a significant part?

thesurrealist · 25/06/2022 20:27

I chose not to have kids so I have no skin in the argument between SAHM and WOHM.

However....I am the daughter of a SAHM. I was born in the 70's and her tale was that she was forced to give up work (in a creative field). Except, she wasn't. Plenty of other women continued to work in that field after children. The truth was, my mother didn't bother going back after I was born and by the time my brother was born, she had been out of the workplace for 2 years.

We grew up poor. Very poor. Our father was a manual worker and although my mothers job wouldn't have been massively paid it would have meant the following, if she'd gone back to work...

  • we would have had food every day....some days there was just a plate of chips for us. An egg if we were lucky
  • we would have been able to have hobbies
  • we would have learnt to swim (something Im still embarrassed about today and cover up by claiming I'm frightened of the water....im not...I have always yearned to be able to swim)
  • we would have gone to school in clean clothes because we would have had a change in school uniform or enough electric on the meter to wash our clothes
  • we could have had holidays like the other kids
  • we could have had treats

Instead our childhood was dull and miserable and boring. Mostly it was insecure and stressful.

My dad had a heart attack at 50 when I was away at uni (no money from my parents to cushion me I had a grant and loan and that was it). They had bought their council house a few years before but once he was not working my brother (in an apprenticeship) and I ( a student) had to bail them out. I had no money for the usual student life of pubs and fun. My brother had no money for anything. And it was all for nothing as the house was repossessed anyway in the end.

But of course we had lovely memories of quality time with our mother at home in our childhoods? Like fuck we did. Our childhood was one stress after another. There were no days out, no crafts, no fun ....because there was no money for anything because my mother refused to work and my father was working himself into the ground.

I'll repeat that. My father worked himself into the ground while my mother stayed at home.

Reading threads like this, I feel for the men working 80 hour weeks so their wives can stay at home with the children. My father, luckily still,alive who,st she is dead, is finally spending the time with his children that he couldn't do when we were young because he always had to work - as he worked in agriculture then every summer he would do his day job, then do extra hours helping with the harvest.
If our mother had worked she would have been a happier person. She might have even been a better mother. Our dad would have spent time with his children who he worshipped. My brother and I might have been happier, had a more exciting life. We might not have Made the bad choices in partners we had - both of us going for the empty promise of financial security rather than waiting until we met someone we loved.
We might have had kids ourselves.

Of course, all the women who stay at home on here are going to argue that their children are grateful and they get all they need and want. Maybe they are telling the truth, who knows. I certainly know that I was brainwashed into believing that my mother was better than my friends mother because she didn't work.....that would be the friend whose parents were able to afford riding lessons and a caravan holiday in Cornwall, while we went to the local beach.

My childhood and disastrous first marriage taught me this....that it is insane to not work and earn your own money. Financial independence is more than treats and holidays. It is being able to pay the bills, the rent, the mortgage yourself and not have to spend sleepless nights worrying or dread the post coming.....it is what every girl should aim for.

brookstar · 25/06/2022 20:28

It’s unfourtunate that supposedly scientific people delude themselves in this way but I guess that’s human nature.

This is such an insulting thing to say.
These scientists have PhDs and have been awarded professorships. You don't get those by pretending to be a scientist.

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:33

I have an MA in a certain field and have several published papers. So what? Doesn't give me the right to tell people how they should feel.

brookstar · 25/06/2022 20:33

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:17

The thing is you can find research and theories to pretty much back up anything.

Ultimately, human beings live in the real world fur a fairly short time. If you want to be with your children,, then that's how you feel and you're probably going to gravitate towards a man who understands that. You're hardly going to change your mind because of 'research.'

But nobody is trying to change anyones mind.

Research can help people make informed choices.

If you want to stay at home with your children and it works for your family then do it!!

What I'm saying is that biology doesn't make you more suited to that role and that there is also nothing wrong with choosing to go out to work.

thesurrealist · 25/06/2022 20:34

And because after my father had his heart attack he could never work again, and because my mother never wanted to work, they lived on benefits and he now only has his pension credit.

As the higher earner in the family - I'm a senior NHS manager - I am financially responsible for my dad and also help my brother who is struggling now on barely above minimum wage.

Just in case anyone wanted to argue that divorced childfree women have no responsibilities.

brookstar · 25/06/2022 20:34

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:33

I have an MA in a certain field and have several published papers. So what? Doesn't give me the right to tell people how they should feel.

Nobody is telling anyone how to feel.....

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:42

Yes they are. The whole point of this thread is that SAHMs are naive, don't understand feminism, financially vulnerable, think they're better mothers, stupid, letting down working women on a structural level.., blah blah blah

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:43

If you have an instinct to be with your children, apparently you are deluded.

brookstar · 25/06/2022 20:44

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:42

Yes they are. The whole point of this thread is that SAHMs are naive, don't understand feminism, financially vulnerable, think they're better mothers, stupid, letting down working women on a structural level.., blah blah blah

I just ignore those posters tbh.

Neither of those choices is 'better' and most people realise that.

brookstar · 25/06/2022 20:47

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:43

If you have an instinct to be with your children, apparently you are deluded.

one poster had used the word deluded (multiple times) and it was aimed at those of us who think socialisation and societal expectations are more influential than biology.

Thinkbiglittleone · 25/06/2022 20:53

Of course you are not being unreasonable at being shocked by it, or being shocked by anything for that matter.

I do find it unreasonable to not be able to understand who other peoples priorities and needs are different from your own.

I do find it unreadable to judge a whole bunch of people based on a choice they are making as they believe it best for their family.

I do find it unreasonable to judge a whole bunch or people based on something they may have absolutely no control over.

And I am shocked this shit is still happening in 2022.

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:58

These threads are always the same brookstar..
I'm in the flaming Billie Eilish concert with my 13 year old and friends and she hasn't come out yet, so just passing time chatting to people who think I'm stupid because I have no job. Always fun! The best if MN.

Topgub · 25/06/2022 21:02

@PrincessMeg

Tend to's aren't innate

Won't be in some but will be in others isn't innate

Its either innate in all males and all females or its not.

But I do accept that there are biological sex differences that tend to show in most males and most females

What I dont accept is that they are meaningful enough to mean that they are a barrier to equality

brookstar · 25/06/2022 21:03

limemintice · 25/06/2022 20:58

These threads are always the same brookstar..
I'm in the flaming Billie Eilish concert with my 13 year old and friends and she hasn't come out yet, so just passing time chatting to people who think I'm stupid because I have no job. Always fun! The best if MN.

I certainly don't think SAHMs are stupid.
Those that do need to seriously look at themselves and why they think that.

Enjoy the concert!

PrincessMeg · 25/06/2022 21:10

@brookstar

What was happening during the pandemic was actually a good example of biology coming to the fore when the attempt to force ideology fails for whatever reason. If there was ever a worse pandemic or disaster (hopefully never) this would happen again and people would fall more into stereotypical roles the longer it went on. It’s not neccassarily a good thing but that is just the way we are instinctively, that is the way we were during most of history and whenever shit hits the fan it’s what we return to very easily.In that respect biology informs societal expectations.

And yeah biology is responsible for more boys going naturally into stem subjects. Yes with significant manipulation you may get girls into them - but who was more attracted to those subjects and in specific to computers when there was no push for anyone to enter them? Men and boys - they were simply tinkering with the machines that obsessed them, not because it was prestigious to do so, if anything people may have told them there was no future in it, but they did it because they were obsessed with it. Half of those types of stem subjects are in existence because of the obsessional interest of some males in something no one else cared about at the time. Yes there’s a push from certain quarters to get girls into them once they’re established and it’s seen as something successful men have that women don’t - but whose actually doing the original creation? Mostly The weird bsessive boys and men.
There is a biological reason the Gates and Zuckerbergs of the world are mostly male. Nobody pushed them to do what they do, they created what they do - that’s the difference, the push to get girls into those things comes later when they’re already established and some women think women should get more benifet from what those guys created.

And yes women are more inclined to teaching roles specifically at a junior primary and early childhood level because of biology. That’s hardly controversial, they choose it over and over even knowing it pays less than other things they could do.

Topgub · 25/06/2022 21:13

Lots of sahm do think they're better mothers

Its all over this thread

Anyone who disagrees is just bitter because secretly (I presume) they feel guilty they're not a better mother too

PrincessMeg · 25/06/2022 21:14

@Topgub

They are a barrier to any kind of gender equity which seems to be the only actual measure of gender equality for people who are about that stuff. In fact intrinsic gender differences that play out on average gender wide basically say it’s impossible.

If gender equity isn’t required for equality then we either already have equality or equality doesn’t really mean anything definable anyway so who cares.

Topgub · 25/06/2022 21:15

@PrincessMeg

Its absolute madness to pretend that boys and girls aren't funnelled into sex specific careers paths

You're denial is a bit odd.

Do you feel insecure by the idea that girls are socialised (mostly) into being sahms?

brookstar · 25/06/2022 21:17

PrincessMeg

Oh dear. We appear to have time travelled back a hundred or so years.

I'm actually beginning to think you're a troll and your posts are designed to get a rise out those of us who are stupid enough to engage with you.

I'm out - I just hope you aren't teaching your children that bullshit.

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