To be shocked that in the 21st century there's still a staggering amount of women who rely entirely on their husbands?

[EllieRosesMammy]

I see it far too often on MN, women saying their husbands have been cheating on them for years or treating them absolutely terribly, but saying they can't leave because they are entirely financially dependent on their husbands.

Is it just me who finds this mad in 2022? Or is it still normal for men to be 100% the provider of the household?

I just couldn't imagine being stuck in a rubbish situation simply because of money

I am absolutely in no way slating stay at home mums, or house wives here either. I just believe all women should be self sufficient enough that if they're in a bad situation they can walk away

PrincessMeg

It certainly does feel like we've travelled back in time.

Your tendency to dismiss reputable sources of information is very telling.
Of course we have specialists writing books on their subjects. That's kind of the piont! They're specialists for a reason. Are you really dismissing some critically acclaimed books without reading them because their authors are feminists? Why not read them with a critical eye instead?
If we were discussing Tudor history would you dismiss work written by an historian who specialises in Henry VIII?

@Topgub

But if these diffences are informed by sex diffences then it does mean they’re innate and inescapable. And also if they are caused by sex diffences why would you even want to try to escape them - you would just be trying to make people something they’re not.

And the brain thing is true, at a very basic level male brains are on average 10 to 12% larger and the makeup of types of matter is on average different. but I think it’s hormones and other reactions that are the even bigger culprit in psychological differences.

When all is said and done, you can read all the books you like about gendered brains and nature v nurture. It will always be the chicken and the egg debate to some extent. By all means be aware, but ultimately, in the private sphere, life is too short to be second guessing the way you feel all the time. If you feel you have to force yourself to leave your kids with childminders, because you think anything else is somehow 'wrong', then what is the point of that? How is that progress? Women will just make themselves unhappy and ill.

Some women feel very strongly about being around for their children. Trying to tell these women to second guess how they feel, or to deny their instinct to be with their own children, is as ridiculous as telling people who they allowed to be attracted to, or something else that happens on a largely instinctive level.

Isn't it healthier to acknowledge the impact of societal expectations and that nobody is immune to this, but still be able to be honest with yourself?

@PrincessMeg

They're not different. I think you need to update you're knowledge base.

The differences aren't inescapable because very little of our lives is determined by biology. Its not biological for women to like cushions and men football. It's societal.

Men produce caring and nurturing hormones too. In fact the more direct parenting they do, the more hormones they produce.

@brookstar

Feminists are experts on biology or brain chemistry though. And taking that slant into anything is sure to produce highly biased results.

Do you seriously believe that natural hormonal diffences don’t result in psychological diffences in humans as they do in every other animal in which these hormonal diffences occur? If so you are clearly being wilfully biased against reality for the sake of an ideology which isn’t a good thing.

For everyone one of the “experts” you listed there are one hundred who will tell you the diffences are real and cause by hormonal differences and brain differences (primarily hormonal).

@Topgub

They are different. You need to do some basic research. male brains are on average 10 percent larger - that is quite a diffence for starters, there is also on average substantial diffences in the quantity of matter. These are all facts.

And that’s just the brain without the hormonal diffences which take effect on it which probably have even more of an effect on our psychology.

But ultimately you will believe what you wish. Time will tell the truth, we are an animal with gendered diffences in both body and mind, just like our closest ancestors.

To think biology only affects the body or starts from the neck down is pure self delusion.

@Topgub

And mens increased interest in sports and in particular watching violent natured sports is almost certainly a result of testosterone which produces agression and the desire for competition.

Yes men have SOME nurturing hormones just like women have some testosterone- but these things aren’t equal in measure, hence the psychological differences.

PrincessMeg

Professor Gina Rippon, the author or The Gendered Brain is a Neurobiologist.
Professor Cordelia Fine, author of Delusions of Gender is also a published Neuroscientist.

The book Invisible Women is a book about data.

Sometimes feminists can be scientists - who knew??

@brookstar

I have googled a little of her and I wasn’t impressed. She seems to admit that there are indeed diffences in male and female brains and hormonal diffences which affect thinking which are scientifically recognised - yet her arguments seem to be that because a human is able to learn skills which effect the brain slightly (ie someone who reads more will have more developed centers which enable this) that this somehow means that the brain is totally malleable - except she doesn’t actually say that she just leaves it hanging as though she’s proven something she hasn’t. Much of her evidence for brain differences (which she admits exist) between men and women not mattering seems to be in the vein of “but debate in some circles rages about the extent they effect etc etc etc” - whose circles? Hers and others with feminist beliefs?

And she barely touches upon the diffences hormones make to psychology despite admitting they do indeed make a difference.

It’s as though she’s freely admits the gender brain differences and hormonal differences which further affect them but then tries to argue they don’t matter - and because she implies vaguely that there is no difference despite actually writing the opposite when she goes into detail, people who want that to be true take it that she’s proven that gender brain differences don’t exist - when actually she completely believes they do.

Seems to be the “pop” scientists for dummies, basically the girl power version of pop science books. But if you look past that stylised marketing, she actually completely admits brain diffences in gender are real. But for some reason she’s just like, but don’t worry about it they make no difference. Why not? Why wouldn’t they as they do in every other animal and as our entire human history as recorded they do in us?

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

@Topgub

Again she just confirms that male and female brains are indeed different (without even getting into the hormonal effect on them) but puts foward the totally unproven idea that they are totally malleable. What has some people confused is that she says they are more alike than different - well duh, we’re the same species, but as she admits, the differences exist.

She admits brain differences exist, admits hormonal differences affect the brain and this is proven to effect both thought and mood yet tries to make out none of this adds up to innate differences? That makes no sense and is obviously ideologically driven.

@PrincessMeg

Do you believe that men are more Intelligent than women? More capable?

Worse parents?

PMSL at a Professor of Neurobiology being referred to as a pop scientist for dummies.

You complain that the recommended books were written by feminists not scientists. When it's pointed out to you that they are in fact scientists, and pretty impressive ones at that ( I don't know how many professorships you hold PrincessMeg but I can assure you they aren't just given out) you spend 10 mins on Google trying to discredit years and years of scientific research. It's laughable.

And fyi, The issue of hormones is addressed in the book, which you'd know if you'd actually read what she'd written.

@PrincessMeg

What are the innate differences?

If couples want to be 'gender neutral' then that's absolutely fine. That is their direct experience. My husband and I see ourselves as equal, but we have different roles which could be considered quite gendered. But that's how we feel and the natural dynamic for us. I'm not going to pretend to be something I'm not and neither is he. Does it matter why?

@brookstar

And there’s hundreds of scientists saying that the diffences are very real - even she is saying the diffences are real, she’s just arguing they’re more malleable than though. Or do you think she’s claiming there is no difference in brains on average between males and females - because she not.
She had taken as a starting point that the male and female brains are on average different but with a lot of overlap - which is what everyone thought already and then argued that thisnis influenced greatly by socialisation - which is unproven. But because this assertion appeals to the ideologically driven she’s gained noteriety.

Thete are scientists saying the opposite - why is it that you have taken her as the one you will choose to believe I wonder? (Even though I don’t think you actually understand she’s not even saying that gender brain diffences aren’t real she’s just putting a ideological spin on why they exist)

@Topgub

The differences are real but are averaged out across the whole gender - there is a lot of overlap and similar traits but on average because of our hormones and brain differences we are different on a gender wide basis - almost as though we are the two different genders of the same species.

I don’t know why that it upsetting or hard for some to believe - if we were talking about any other animal and it was said that male and females had different psychological makeup caused by hormonal and brain differences it would be obvious to everyone that was the case. You can raise two of the same animals of different genders in the same environment without socialisation from other animals like them and gender diffences manifest. Why would gender diffences be innate in other animals but not us. Are we not an animal?

The innate differences are amongst other things that men will tend to be more physically agressive because of testosterone - seen in all primates, this is largely responsible for mens competition via sports which has been going on forever and invention of violent sports. women will tend to be more nurturing of their small children naturally because of estrogen. Men will tend toward a deeper obsessiveness bordering on autistic traits which often gives rise to a specific interest whether in science, math, the mechanical or other areas - in everyday life this manifests in mens obsessiveness with weird or pointless hobbies, women will tend to value socialisation in groups more and gain more from this setting in the way of mental support and fufilment. Women are often better listeners and able to read mood better.

Thise are just some - I’m not implying they are true for every man and woman, obviously some men can be good listeners and some women highly obsessive over sport, but nonetheless these things are often true on a gender wide level and it’s a result of biology.

Nobody expects to do an autopsy and the brains are pink and blue and different shapes - obviously us and men are more alike than diffent and there is a lot of crossover of traits - but there are diffences which make certain traits more likely to occur in males or females.

I don’t think either is smarter. Sometimes I think the male trait for obsessiveness and autistic traits can lead to a particular competence in something which is often what is described as genius which has lead to some people thinking men are smarter, but really they are just more obsessive on average.

Do you mean to be so patronising?

I understand her work and (unlike you) have actually read her book.
I read widely on this particular subject and I teach elements of it!

Her underlying premise is that there is no such thing as a strictly male or female brain ( which is what you suggest) but that all brains are different. These differences could be caused by biology (which does explain sex differences but not to the extent we've been led to believe and they're not universal ) but they are also caused by socialisation and our experiences with the world.
It's moving away from the concept of biological destiny which has had huge ramifications in how men and women are viewed by society. This is the bit I'm particularly interested in because it has a direct influence on career and educational choices.

You don't have to agree with what's she's written. But I suspect you won't agree with anything that goes against your opinion 🤷🏼‍♀️

Women are often better listeners and able to read mood better.

It's 2022 and people are still spouting this utter baseless rubbish.

I've been training men and women in counselling skills for over a decade. This just isn't true.

Men will tend toward a deeper obsessiveness bordering on autistic traits which often gives rise to a specific interest whether in science, math, the mechanical or other areas - in everyday life this manifests in mens obsessiveness with weird or pointless hobbies, women will tend to value socialisation in groups more and gain more from this setting in the way of mental support and fufilment.

Gubbins. ‘Extreme male brain’ theory has been disregarded by newer scientific understanding.

It’s nonsense like this that led to autistic females being missed for decades. Thankfully we know better now.

I used to agree @EllieRosesMammy until I was made redundant and had to survive off my husbands wage.

then when I found a new role, my salary was reduced by 10k because I had a gap on my CV (I applied for literally everything but my age was against me!)

sometimes things aren’t black and white.

sadly!

@brookstar

Obviously all brains are different but male and female brains (and hormones that influence what takes place in them) do on a gender wide level have more similarities with others of their gender than the other. That’s a simple fact which even she doesn’t deny.

And they “could” be cause by biology which would explain sex differences? They are caused by the same biology which causes all sex differences. If we were talking about any other animal would you even try to dispute this? Do you think gorilla sex diffences are caused by socialisation? When a cow and a bull who are totally hand reared without socialisation with their own species exhibit stereotypical sex traits do you see this as surprising? Why would you feel that humans would be different - if you take your ideology out of it there is no logical reason to.

And yes sex diffences are universal across all cultures on a wide scale - that in no way is in conflict with them not being rude for every individual. Them not being universal to every individual in no way disproves the existence of diffences on a gender wide level.

Nobody has been saying that there is a “strictly” male and female brain - that is a straw man she has made up to knockdown. If that were true and men and women had totally diffent brains then men and women couldn’t even communicate and would a totally different species from one another - indeed more different than humans are from chimps since our brains share some traits with there’s.
What had been said is that their are on average sex differences in the brain and even more so in the hormones which effect it. That is very much a proven fact - so no brain is “totally” male or female but on average male and female brain differences exist and male and female hormonal diffences always exist - taken in conjunction these two things add up to men and women being biologically different on a psychological level. What part of that don’t you get?

@OrangeSamphire

It hasn’t been disregarded at all. Maybe by some biased researcher but not by the majority. You can see it play out in reality.

Honestly this is pointless, we could time travel a thousand years from now and men and women will still be mentally different in significant ways, it’s laughable that anyone could believe otherwise and think that unlike every other animal all our differences are caused by socialisation. That will be laughed at in the future as a momentary delusion of history.

So where does socialisation fit in princessmeg?
Given your list of what you consider innate differences between the sexes has been widely debunked on a biological level don't you think our experiences and the expectations placed upon us by society play a key part?

We know there are physical and biological differences between the sexes but those differences don't men are better at certain subjects or suited to particular careers. We learn that through socialisation, a process that starts from birth ( and before - gender reveal parties I'm looking at you! )