To be shocked that in the 21st century there's still a staggering amount of women who rely entirely on their husbands?

[EllieRosesMammy]

I see it far too often on MN, women saying their husbands have been cheating on them for years or treating them absolutely terribly, but saying they can't leave because they are entirely financially dependent on their husbands.

Is it just me who finds this mad in 2022? Or is it still normal for men to be 100% the provider of the household?

I just couldn't imagine being stuck in a rubbish situation simply because of money

I am absolutely in no way slating stay at home mums, or house wives here either. I just believe all women should be self sufficient enough that if they're in a bad situation they can walk away

No, most women don't live like a Saudi princess no doubt, but I'd wager that the average non-working woman with a well off husband has generally enjoys each weekday morning more than the woman sat in a cubicle typing up a submission.

What if your ‘work’ and living ‘how you please’ are one and the same?

@Topgub
I said a sacrifice needed to be made. You can have a bit of both. You've been obsessing over that, picking it apart and putting it back together like a jigsaw with missing pieces. Go back and read what I wrote and maybe you'll stop obsessing. Every single post is about that. You're exhausting. It's damaging to force an opinion onto other women, that they shouldn't be sahm. It's not your place.

That's right we're all just pretending. I mean, who could enjoy looking after their own children.

You have a bee in your bonnet. I never mentioned it being an ideal. It's right for some families, clearly not you.

I'm going to ignore you. You can't see past your own nose.

@Topgub

You can define equality however you want or don’t want. Ultimately if I’m free to be a SAHM and your free to work but we still apparently don’t have equality then I really don’t care about achieving whatever you think of as equality. That’s not some sacred cow to me, if I’m happy and have choice why should I give a shit if we pass some imaginary finishing line of the equality race? I don’t.

We haven’t achieved equality though have we?

Because women in the workplace are still paid less than men.

And because the work of the home, while it is mostly volunteered for by women willing to facilitate the economically valued lives of working men, is not valued.

But yeah crack on. Because ‘you’re alright Jack’.

Although to be perfectly honest since you said you research womens career development I can’t help but think that the “evidence” you have seen is largely feminist type ideologically based research of the type that informs opinions such as those seen above that basically try to make out women have always been working and career is nothing new etc. basically as a way for advocating for women in careers. You know, the kind of “research” which starts with an ideological stance and then seeks to confirm it.

Wrong.
I'm a university academic. A huge part of my job is reviewing the evidence which is derived from reputable sources. We're talking peer reviewed research, research that stands up to scrutiny and that has had to go through all kinds of ethical approval. If I was to be found to be producing or referring to research that was implicitly biased my reputation as an academic would be damaged.

And I think when it comes to “outcomes” there’s more to it than just what salary you end up with - how inwardly happy both as a adult AND as a child is important. But anyway I wasn’t trying to trash working Mums I just take issue with SAHM being so offesnsive to SOME few working Mums (or working women without children) that they try to make out as though it’s not a totally natural thing to do.

You've misunderstood what I mean by 'outcomes'. I'm talking about young people and I'm referring to education, work and health outcomes not about whether their parents have a good salary.

You also need to understand that being a SAHM isn't a natural thing for many women and women who feel like that shouldn't be made to feel like they they are doing something unnatural by working once they've had children.

@OrangeSamphire

Its not valued by you, you mean, it’s valued by me and other SAHM and valued by loving partners of them and a wide section of society. If you see me and women like me as being the reason equality doesn’t exist then so be it. I’m not the one obsessing over gender equality, you are.

Personally I believe in giving more choice so people can follow their own inclination I really don’t give a shit about achieving a perfect 50/50 split in earnings and everything else between men and women at a societal level. I think that’s unnatural and would only last as long as you could force it, which wouldn’t be long.

Why do you want to turn people into bonsai versions of themselves - all shrunken down and made to fit the form you want - that’s the equality that’s so precious to you?

Foxgluv - a certain poster or two in here are on every thread about SAHMs or anything with "high earner" in the title.

They are misogynists, but are convinced they are feminists. They confuse equality with 'doing the same as men at all times.' 50/50 is the mantra snd they can't think any more flexibly than this. They don't believe SAHMs can know their own minds.

They are essentially very odd, bitter people and could maybe do with a life coach or someone to help them get to the bottom of things.

But instead they just keep droning on about SAHMs when the truth is, they have never even met one in their lives! This is the reality. It's an utter joke.

@Foxgluv

I'm not forcing my opinion on you.

I'm disagreeing with you and you are disagreeing with me.

You're free to live your life and form your own opinions

You cant coherently argue them, granted but you are still free to believe them. I'm not stopping you.

I really don’t give a shit about achieving a perfect 50/50 split in earnings and everything else between men and women at a societal level. I think that’s unnatural and would only last as long as you could force it, which wouldn’t be long.

Why is it unnatural for women to earn the same as men for doing the same work?

@brookstar

Yeah sorry but you saying your a University academic doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence that what I wrote about following biased research isn’t the truth.
People of a like minded persuasion - in this case to do with womens careers do the research (as they’re interested) and then people of that similar persuasion do “peer review” of it. So when you in a bubble of people that generally hold the same kind of views about SAHM and such things and they are the group that does the research and reviews it that doesn’t make for unbiased research at all. Or are you telling me the research and peer review isn’t by academics with a vested interest in these subjects?

I didn’t misunderstand - I said that outcomes are measured by more than what job those young people end up in and their health status.

and I am not the one trying to make people feel they’re doing something wrong but when people throw around posts about how SAHM have only existed for a few decades to try to make themselves feel superior I can help but point out the obvious bs of it. It seems some few women are insecure about SAHM existing (possibly because someone questioned them choosing career in the past) and feel attacked by others who don’t have that intention when in reality they are the ones with a entirely condescending attitude.

@brookstar

Not what I meant and you know it - what is unnatural is that we would all choose the same paying professions at a gender split and do the same time in them and the same time caring for children so that it would ever end up that society wide their was an exact gender split in earnings. That aim is a pointless artifice.

Not valued by society.

Really intrigued as to why you think it’s unnatural for men and women to be paid equally? Unless I’ve read that wrong.

I can see that being a SAHM means a lot to you. Great for you. There’s a wider society out there where women still face inequality and unfortunately SAHM in its current form is one of the contributing factors.

Doesn’t mean SAHPs can’t do valuable things with their time that contribute at home and in society. But those who choose a kept-housewife style life, of which there are still some, are doing women as a class (and men actually) no favours.

Be individualistic about it if you like, but recognise others may take a dim view of that.

All these women who are just so sure their partner will never fuck them over are living on hope.
I don't understand this. I wouldn't be in a relationship with someone I didn't trust let alone have a family with them. Everyone who shares their life with someone else is surely 'living on hope' that they will be faithful and a good partner regardless of their job.

I sure as fuck wouldn't want to be relying on the goodwill of another human being to ensure I'm safe, comfortable and can afford my survival.

When I worked there was no way I could have afforded a mortgage alone if DH left me. I'm in a better position now I'm a SAHM because we've put measures in place to make me more secure.

@OrangeSamphire

It is valued by society, perhaps not your particular corner of society but I’ve never met anyone who made me feel less than for being a SAHM if anything it’s the opposite. Except on this site.

I don’t care what other view of it is, I may take a dim view of them for holding that view.

And as clarified above I didn’t say it was unnatural for men and women to be paid the same for doing the exact same particular job, obviously it’s right in that situation they are paid the same. I said that for society to every achieve a 50/50 earning split between the gender on a society wide level would be unnatural and a pointless artifice which wouldn’t last, as there is simply no way we would naturally choose to do all the same things (either in work or to choose to be SAHP or not) which is the only way that could happen naturally.
Perhaps you could force it in law and quotas and stuff for a time but imo that’s doomed to fail. Nature will find a way.

Or OrangeSamphire, you could consider, just for a second, that women are not merely a 'class' but billions of individuals. You can't push them all into your narrow box of what you declare they 'should' want. Feminism will get nowhere if this is all it has to offer.

Who do some people think they are to tell other what what they should want?

It's like, "I didn't feel I wanted to SAH once children came along, therefore that instinct cannot exist..."

Just get over yourselves.

PrincessMeg you ( understandably) get upset at people saying negative things about SAHMs but you think it's acceptable to slate my job and profession? How hypocritical of you.

I'm comfortable that the research a refer to and the research I carry out is reputable. My aim is not to get more women working - it's to ensure equality and freedom of choice.

At no point have I said anything negative about being a SAHM. My entire career is based on giving women choices and supporting them in making informed choices. Often that choice is be a SAHM. We take a person centred approach and it's about what is best for the individual and their family. However, it is important to acknowledge the impact of societal expectations around the role of men and women in society on these choices.

It is not condescending to state facts, and they are facts, about the role of women in society throughout history. It's not offensive, if you see it in that way then that is on you.

With regards outcomes, the occupations people end up in ( and whether they work at all) is an important measure. That's not saying everyone should aspire to high paying professions but if we only ever have certain sections of society entering certain universities and certain professions then we can see that there is some level of structural inequality that we can address.

Right ?? If there us one thing I’m teaching my daughters is that they should always be able to stand on their feet .
I could never depend on a partner entirely and I don’t think anyone should

@limemintice Ah the good old condemning the actions of men but aspiring to do what the men do 😂my favourite kind of feminism.

Yes the posts reek of misogyny. I thought one of them was male until a particular comment. Very bitter indeed. They're not fooling anyone.

Not what I meant and you know it - what is unnatural is that we would all choose the same paying professions at a gender split and do the same time in them and the same time caring for children so that it would ever end up that society wide their was an exact gender split in earnings. That aim is a pointless artifice.

Do you think that is what people are aiming for?
Isn't it more about ensuring equality of choice?

For example, me and my DH have exactly the same qualifications so I think that we both should have equality of opportunity should we want it.
So, if we both want to work then I, as a female, shouldn't be at a disadvantage just because I'm a woman and I should also be paid the same.
I also think that if we both work full time then childcare should be split 50/50. That doesn't mean I think everyone should live like that.

It's not about forcing people to do things they don't want to, it's about ensuring people have the opportunity to do the things they do want to do.

So what laws exactly would you want to change then?
The world has changed, for many people 2 incomes are a necessity.
Having lived as a single person for many years life on your own is expensive, adding kids in the mix is definitely harder. It's just mathematical sense.

If your DH is already a high earner, has lots of assets etc you don't need to worry. You'll never be on the 'bones of your arse'.
But if you had nothing much to begin with divorcing isn't going to magically create more money. There are already lots of benefits for single parents. Yes, we can go after men for more CMS and like certain countries withhold their wages, jail them, seize passports etc.

And we have more opportunities for retraining - now more than ever. Access courses, apprenticeships, whatever. But again, logically speaking someone who's been out of the workforce for years can't expect the same salary as someone who has relevant experience. You can't demand extra money for entry-level/training roles just because you have kids. That would be exactly the same argument they used to pay MEN more back in the day... because they had a 'family to support'.

@brookstar

I didn’t slate your profession but if what I wrote is true - that the research is both carried out and reviewed by people with similar beliefs in similar departments for subjects about equality and women at work etc. who have a similar belief about how such things should work in society then what I said about it not really being unbiased is true.
Thats alright though, it’s just important to recognise that. For instance if a religious scholar does research on something and then another religious scholar from the same religion reviews that - you would hardly call that unbiased research or research review would you?

The reality is that it’s far from a fact that women have always worked in a comparable way to today throughout history, in fact it’s a flat out delusion based in wishful thinking. It’s like believing Wonder Woman and the Amazons is real history or something.

I think we’re talking at cross purposes when it comes to outcomes, I never said children with SAHM would get better paying jobs and I don’t believe that’s the truth at all. I do believe that a constantly present parent is a source of both comfort, guidance and happiness for children and they carry that through with them into adulthood. Well sometimes they do anyway. The point being if it doesn’t exist for them they don’t.

Im sure a filthy rich orphans who went to Eton would likely have would would be recognised a a successful “outcome” as well, but would be quite sad and deprived in some ways. That’s what I’m getting at - the positive inner emotional outcome of having a loving SAHM, both in childhood and adulthood. Say what you want you’ll never tell me it’s not real.

@PrincessMeg If not then you have to realise that the kinds of men who value and are attracted to the type of home life and family values of a SAHM are radically different to a man who really is just drifting with a woman

I can see this is really really important for you to believe. But just like the people who exercise and eat right have lower rates of many diseases, but can still be blindsided by serious illness, we can be taken aback by life. It's also not true that the majority of sahps were driven by certain values - many are forced into it by childcare costs, or by a DH who picks up so little of the slack that working feels impossible.

It's not just the risk of cheating, either. Plenty of working people are about to be made redundant right now. There are others who unfortunately develop serious illnesses or pass away young. It doesn't need to be a full time career job - but I'd hope my DD ensures she keeps marketable and up to date skills, to give her choices and security.