To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

She can't.

She literally can't.

So why don’t you tell him how you feel about trans people and then ask him if he is a man or a woman?

I'll see where the conversation goes. Not pushing it, he may not want to talk about it nor may I.

It's not the only thing we can talk about you know

Sick to death of all of this. Women are women, men are men. End of.

In much the same way that I am under no obligation to believe or state that Christians will actually experience eternity in heaven, that Jews are actually God's chosen people, or that my cousin passing her driving test actually was the result of her "asking the universe"... I see no reason why I should believe that trans identifying males are actually women.
I can recognise that it is what they believe but unless you're going to reduce the definition of "woman" to a collection of subjective, intangible feelings, then no, they aren't women.

""it’s never going to become mainstream""

I'm sure twenty years ago we never would have thought we'd be in the position of actually having a debate about whether men can become women.
There are lots of things happening that we would have looked on with abject horror a decade ago which now seem to be acceptable to some people (mastectomies for 12 year olds anyone? puberty blockers? men in women's sports? prisons? toilets? 8 zillion genders? Biology denying? Women raped by men on hospital wards?)

There are already people identify as "furries", trans species, people "transing" their toddlers (several Youtube families who seem to make this their living).

We seem to be on a freight train to shitsville at light speed. I'm not sure the "it'll never happen" brigade really have a leg to stand on when it comes to what will and won't happen in the next couple of decades.

Well, you were practically asking for my roladex a minute ago so that you could do a straw poll.

Yeah I was joking

I'm obviously not gonna contact some randos ti ask then how they identify. Thats a little intrusive and I'm don't really care how they identify its whether I agree they are real women or not that's the question.

Who the fuck still uses a rolodex on 2022 anyway

Anyway to answer the OP

Most posters on here don't believe TWAW

A few do

Rage all you like but that seems to be the consensus

It is biologically impossible to change sex. You are either male XY/female XX or a small minority of people have a subset of X/Y which generally confers deficient intellectual or physical capability.
It is unnecessary to change sex: thoughts, feeling, views, transcend sexes/genders.

We live in a permissive society - men and women and do, say and wear what the hell they like. It's pointless.

Gender transmission - both hormonal and surgical causes physical harm and isn't often reversible and can often render someone infertile.

Confused teens do need need another option. They need to understand that they do not need to conform to any kind of gender norms or ideals and they can be themselves.

Ultimately, allowing any men to access women's spaces when they've been abused is abhorrent. 92% of women killed last year were murdered by a man, the vast majority by someone they were close to, but 2/3rd by those not known to them

@StolenCookie I think you're well meaning but young and it's difficult to comprehend the understanding you get of society as a whole. I keep thinking back to my 20s when there was still a lot of prejudice towards gay men and women, especially gay men with HIV and that too was abhorrent.

But there is no prejudice here from most people, just concern that there isn't an understanding of the harm transgender surgery or medication causes to an individual or the understanding of taking a safe space away from a woman makes.

Overwhelming wrong OP. What did you expect!! You are pushing the dialog too far.

@FunLovinGal explain how these people are different. How is Stefonknee and Rachel Dolezol different from your common or garden trans person.

Also while you're at it, explain how it's ok to consider some trans persons legit and some not legit. Please.

So once more, with feeling.

If male/female is indefinable by any objective criteria and entirely about what you feel in your head ...

Why doesn't that apply to other facets of ones identity too including race?

if not, how would you justify this applying to sexual/gender alone?

FML - this “argument” is going beyond crazy now.

Thank fuck this has stayed in AIBU - because hopefully more people will see it.

There seems to be this weird SM hyperbole that MN is a hotbed of transphobia. It really isn’t. The majority of posts here show no hatred towards those in the trans community. Am not even going to delve into the crap of right-wing religious extremists - that’s becoming a really boring slur.

It is perfectly possible to support the trans community whilst also protecting the rights of women and safe spaces for women. Pretty much every post I’ve seen, on various threads on this site, would amount to supporting safe spaces and services for the trans community - spaces and services tailored to suit their specific needs.

But they should never be at the expense of services for females.

I may be missing the point here but if this person (who is an adult) 'identifies' as a 6 year old, why are they sucking a dummy in this photo?

The only 6 year olds I can imagine who would have a dummy either have special needs or a mental illness. That kinda reaffirms my own belief that people who 'identify' as something they actually are not are suffering from some kind of illness which needs treatment and therapy, not hormones and surgery.

If an adult chooses to 'identify' as a child, legally and factually they are still an adult. They can still buy alcohol, make big monetary decisions like take out a mortgage, drive a vehicle and so-on. They can also consent to sex which obviously a 6 year old cannot. If I choose to 'identify' as a wardrobe, I am still human. A human cannot simply choose to become a wardrobe (and if ever I post on MN telling you I want to identify as something I am not, you have the right to tell me I need a psychiatrist pronto).

The great mystery with Stefoknee that no one has ever been able to answer is that he identified as a 6 year old girl in 2015. Does he still identify as a 6 year old girl, perpetually, or does he now identity as a 13 year old girl?🤨🚩🚩

Either way, no one can ever explain how the “identifying as a girl” part is ok (it’s noticeable that many middle aged men identify as “girls” not peri menopausal women), but identifying as a different age is ludicrous.

My job is to not be a twat by telling someone they aren’t a woman or a man when that is how they identify.

No one is telling TW they aren't TW.

What they are saying is that because they have make genitalia they can't enter single sex woman's spaces because it makes some woman feel vulnerable. They are suing their right to be a TW doesn't trump the right of woman.

They are saying now more me more they can have their own slaves - a third space. Sport is becoming one of the first large organisations to actively provide and promote a safe for trans people only. IMO it's pretty validating to give people their own a space. It's why woman felt validated when they started to gain rights in the last century.

This thread just reflects the beliefs held by most people. Activist positions are generally extreme, and most people ignore them, but when you put the actual beliefs to non-activists, you’ll find they think activists have fringe beliefs.

If you say they’re not women, you’re denying their identity.

Well then we have a problem.

Because by calling their identity "woman", they are denying the rest of us a word for our biological sex, and the right to define ourselves in a way that does not include male people.

That's not OK.

They need to get their own word for their identity, which has nothing to do with us women.

Women are women = XX
TW are men = XY

It simply does not matter what is in an individuals brain, how someone identifies is irrelevant because the biological facts cannot be altered.

Women, and I mean actual XX biological females, need safe spaces (toilets, changing rooms, refuges, prisons and hospital wards). They are also entitled to compete equally and fairly amongst and against other XX women in sport.

In 2022 after years, decades, centuries of oppression against women I find it heartbreaking for my daughter that her rights and opportunities could be compromised by men. Literally a tale as old as time… women facing misogyny.

A few thoughts, although I'm less educated on this topic than a lot of people on here.

I think people are angry because they're worries about women being pushed down again for the rights of biological males
Where are trans men in this debate?
What other topic requires me to believe something to validate another persons' existence and why does it need to be that way?
People are asking you to define woman a lot because the question is intrinsically weird. Is a trans woman a woman? Ok what's a woman? They're certainly trans woman and we can use femanine pronouns but do we have to state a biological inaccuracy and everything that comes with it i.e. changing rooms, prisons etc...

I support trans rights. Someone who genuinely wants to permanently transition to another gender should be able to without stigma.

I also feel that pumping children full of hormones because they claim to feel awkward in their body (everyone does in puberty!) is abusive, especially because so many of those children transition back young adulthood.

I also support women's rights to safe spaces without men who have "self-identified" as women purely to access those safe spaces.

I also support the NHS using clear language, like "mother", "breastfeeding", and "women" when describing pregnancy, maternity, lactation, and things such as ovarian cancer. People with English as a second language or with learning difficulties should be able to read important health literature and understand that as someone born with male genitalia, they do not have endometriosis, nor are they pregnant.

Trans rights should not supercede those of all others.

If someone tells me they don’t feel right in their body, I believe them

@StolenCookie I believe them too. Of course. How awful to feel your body is in conflict with your identity.

But I believe its society that needs to be fixed, not someone's body. So for example a young teenage girl who feels deeply unhappy as she wants to wear and act in what she deems a "masculine" way and perhaps she fancies other girls...we need to support her to understand she can do and look and fuck whoever she wants as a woman...she doesn't need to become a boy to live freely. It is the pressure she feels from society that is problematic, not her body or sex.

Its so incredibly regressive the whole philosophy.

We used to teach young people to love their bodies. Or that was at leat the aim. It's like saying to an aneroxic teenager that if she believes her body to be fat, she's right to not eat rather than provide her the therapy she needs.

If someone tells me they don’t feel right in their body, I believe them

Yes, but there's a difference between saying I am not going to live with the gender stereotyping, I am going to dress and live like a woman (why not, it doesn't affect anyone else) and I am going to become a woman (no, that's not possible).

I've said all along in this debate that it is gender stereotyping that is the fault here. Get rid of all this pink and blue nonsense and don't take the mick out of girls who like trucks or boys who like dolls and let them follow their own interests. Then someone won't think they need to "be" a woman to wear a dress and make-up. They can just do it.

And being gay doesn't mean you are trans. You can be a very masculine man and still want to partner up with men. That's another stereotype: that if you are gay you must be effeminate. Lets stop the stereotyping.