To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

Trans women are women, and the tide isn’t turning back.

Stay on the wrong side of history if you so wish.

That's nailed it for me. Utterly convinced me. Definitely TWAW from now on.

As you were

Hilarious. And yet you’ll fight to the death to segregate trans women into their own separate spaces.

The tide is VERY much turning back, as seen by recent sports rulings.

The tide did turn though.

Fina spoke out last week saying that trans woman who have had male puberty can no longer race against biological woman with woman puberty. They will create a further category.

The point is that the world is seeing a different view. The world is starting to see trans people can live their lives how they choose to but that doesn't mean we erode woman's rights in the process.

Trans women are women, and the tide isn’t turning back.

Um, have you been paying attention to any news in the last week. What an odd assertion if so.

Stay on the wrong side of history if you so wish.

I have not a single qualm about how my position will be judged by history. We'll be looking back at the nonsense of TWAW in horror very soon. We already are in fairness.

I didn't say that.

They can go in the ladies as long as they don't pee over the seat.

May want to use the willy sit down method though

Wrong side of history is a weird one

we all know that history is written by the victors….which doesn’t make it ‘right’

Some recent research on attitudes towards trans people, carried out to show how widely trans people are accepted, revealed the majority of people don't believe anyone with a penis belongs in women's changing rooms, or that males should be in female sports categories. Our view is the majority view across the counrty, not just on MN.

It's called 'his' tory for a reason

I always enjoy these threads, because I spend a good amount of time thinking about the TWAW bullshit thinking "but am I missing anything?".

I'm not. It really is exactly as stupid as it appears to be.

Like omg imagine believing a man is actually a man and not a woman. So extreme! Bigoted and unkind!
How have we got to this point?!
I love the poll results. Terf on Mumsnet!

@PuntasticUsername you are absolutely right!

Oh my god 16 year old ds1 studying suffragettes, we had a bit of a ‘discussion’

i said that history books are written by the victors which until recently were men

he ran up stairs to check who wrote his textbooks

i was stood at the bottom of the stairs yelling ‘if you can find one it does not disprove my point !*

and not one of the textbooks was written by a female

Lol

Why do I have to "validate" the existence of tw?
What happens to tw if I don't? Does not validating them make something awful happen? If I have this superpower, I'd like to know how to use it properly.

Apparently it is literal violence and leads to higb suicide rates.....

The issue is that for a lot of women, “woman” is a bare description of someone’s sex, and they don’t accept your premise that the word “woman” refers to a gender.

a lot of women on this thread telling you that their lived experience as a woman is inextricably linked to being female. If you insist that “woman” does not refer to anatomy, you’re denying these women their identity and their experience. What is the problem with accepting trans women are trans women?

it’s also the case that lots of trans people (not all by any means) now claim to be the sex if their identified gender. See for example in the recent census where trans women not only put themselves down as female, but claimed the requirement to put their birth sex down was transphobic. Do you support this?

i actually support including trans women in lots of women’s spaces but a lot of the ideology is problematic. Surely, as you are someone who is transphobic and hates trans people enough to recognise the issues about things like refuges are nuanced and warrant discussion, you can see why women are so upset at being told “no debate” and called bigots for wanting to discuss these things?

Really, really interesting thread.
Are you trans, OP (may have missed that)?

I too struggle with these concepts. I'm a fairly typical middle-class left-wing mumsnetter, I suppose. I respect anyone's right to 'identify as a trans woman. IRL I know only one man who cross-dresses in public, I'm not even sure how he thinks of himself/herself, and a friend's daughter who reidentified as a boy. Have not had conversations with them to discuss the issues though.
But.
As yet, I cannot in my heart say I believe a trans woman is a woman. They are not biologically female, though I understand that they may feel they were born in the wrong gender. I suppose I recognise them as their own category. I would like to know more and to really understand their issues and feelings on the matter. Do trans people feel that they are the gender they become, even biologically?

They'll get hurt feelings and feel invalid. Their whole imagined existence as a stereotypical woman relies on external validation. Hope you can live with yourself

So (intro to another random ‘my child did…’ post’

dd was very much be kind, absolutely believed that (like me) that some people felt more comfortable identifying as the opposite sex or non binary

absolutely believed that gender was important to some people and that forms should include gender identity etc

about a year ago she tols me that some children she knew were non binary and one was just saying they were non binary for attention and to ‘fit in’ and gosh she was soooo close

but its the rachel dolenz (ive got that surname wrong and I can’t be arsed to check) case thats made her reconsider

she can’t understand why its wrong for a white person to identify as black but not for someone to identify as the opposite sex

So by not setting aside my own feelings of discomfort and distress in order to prioritise TWs feelings, I'm the devil incarnate?

Cool. I'd like my horns extra pointy and my tail with double spikes, please.

Trans women are men. The overwhelming majority are physically intact males, with no intention of changing their physique. There is a subset of trans women who seem to delight in maliciously preventing women from having their own spaces - hospital wards, prisons, rape centres, women’s refuges, changing rooms, sports. Organisations, cowed by Stonewall, are afraid to call breastfeeding that, in case a trans man is feeding her baby. Why should women give up their spaces, their sports, their terminology because of a tiny % of the tiny estimated 0.85% of trans people who are agent provocateurs? I am live & let live, but the rights of women are under threat and being silent will let our daughters and granddaughters’ lives be threatened. The cyclist, Emily Bridges, a fully intact male was in male races in March 2022, then self identified as a women and started winning womens’ races. Of course he did, he went through male puberty, gained the skeletal and muscular advantages of a male. Women don’t stand a chance in most sports when men play. The magnificent USA womens football World Cup winners lost playing against a team of 14 year old boys. Let trans people live their lives, obviously, but not by trampling on women.

If anything was to prove TWAM this would be it.

she can’t understand why its wrong for a white person to identify as black but not for someone to identify as the opposite sex

As no one's ever managed to credibly explain why this is different, I'm not surprised she's struggling.