To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

Lol - well at least you can’t say they don’t understand what it’s like to be a child - we’ve all been through childhood!

No one can be compared to trans. No one is as opressed or marginalised. Other comparators are not valid especially when it comes to identity trumping reality. Oppression Olympics gold winners for the 4th year running

Well that's very handy for your non-argument.

Metabigot, loving your work....

FunLovinGal, I've never told anyone they're not the sex/gender they identify as. I've used the pronouns I've been asked (and in some cases told to use, new names, the lot. I am kind. I just won't be told what to think.

You don't understand irony do you

But it’s not up to me to tell someone else who they are

Why not? When did this become such a dreadful sin?

So you do accept they are both TW and men? It's quite confusing that they can be men having undergone surgery, and yet a male who hasn't transitioned in any form - medically or surgically but has an idea in their brain they are a woman - is a woman.

@FunLovinGal but are they a child? Do you accept their identity?Should they have the right to be adopted,free education in a primary school, attend various clubs and groups that are age specific etc? Yes or no? It's that simple.

I think if someone feels they will be more comfortable, happy and fulfilled living as another gender, then they should go for it. As Billy Connolly said, we pass this way but once, and if that's what will make you happy it's your choice. As Connolly also said, it gets a very high score on the nobody-else's-fucking-business-ometer. Nobody should be subject to any kind of prejudice as a result.

If you want to live as a woman, though, what you can't do is force me to accept that you are a woman, if I know for a fact that you aren't.

Proposition 1. I absolutely don’t have to believe they belong in those spaces. I don’t believe they don’t belong there either, necessarily

Proposition 2. But it still doesn’t stop me from believing whole heartedly that trans women are women

Putting aside the confusion of proposition 1, both 1 and 2 are somewhat contradictory in that if you wholly believe 2, then 1 doesn’t hold. That is, if you believe that TWAW then you must believe they have the right to all women’s spaces without exception. Especially if, seemingly like OP, you don’t believe that biological sex is a defining marker of identity.

Eventually we get to…

Proposition 3. And yet you’ll fight to the death to segregate trans women into their own separate spaces

This gets more to the heart of the OP’s belief, in how the last proposition strongly implies support for TW fully accessing single sex spaces. Just saying it’s complicated does not hold with these propositions that you’re making. Why not just come out and say you believe both that TWAW and as such they have the right to access all women’s spaces? This is what you’re saying in a more evasive manner. Have the courage of your convictions.

However, IMO, the people posting on MN* are very rarely transphobic. Throwing that accusation is often a glib means to deny the serious concerns being expressed with respect to protecting young vulnerable teens from life long regret, safeguarding, and protecting vulnerable women. It’s not denying trans rights, it’s about ensuring rights are balanced because rights do conflict. We see this playing out in the US atm.

*It makes no sense to accuse an entire forum of any specific characteristic. It’s a forum, not a person.

Why don’t you ask them?

Happy to. Can you send me some contacts?

Oh, so you weren’t joking? You’re really trying to argue that it’s the same thing?

Can anyone else hear the sound of the bottom of a barrel being scraped?

Er nope. Listening out now but only hearing the bleep of the breadmaking downstairs and the odd car passing by.

Generally, yes. But not as expressed in your case.

Trans women are men who've had there dicks cut off. Some don't even bother with that bit. Go away.

@FunLovinGal of course it is. Stefonknee is transgender and identifies as a child, lives
with a couple as her "mummy and daddy" dresses in children's clothes,has a dummy , spends her days colouring ,playing with toys and other children.

OP said it's all based on feelings. Steph feels like a child ,identifies as such and lives as such. Do you deny her identity?

So you don’t actually know any TW then? So where are you getting your insights from - MN and the Daily Mail by any chance?

Perhaps if you knew some trans people you might see things differently.

@FunLovinGal explain how they're different please.

But it’s not up to me to tell someone else who they are

well, personally, I’m not really a fan of compelled speech.

I mean I honestly don't get it. There's a right type of trans? A right type of feelings?
So if steph said she was a woman, that would be ok and we have to accept that no matter what. She is a woman and that's that?
But because she says she's a girl then it's not valid anymore? How does that work?

Clearly not. Trans have undoubtedly mastered the oppression Olympics though, don't think many would disagree on that.

If I didn't dislike the activism so much I'd admire how they've pulled it off.

I have an old uni friend who changed sex. Very happy for him personally. Happy to meet up for a drink if we bump into each other.

Still don't accept twaw/ tmam.

• Changed gender. Not bio sex obviously as that's not possible

Whoever that is, it doesn’t matter what I think as it’s never going to become mainstream. There are many people who live ‘unorthodox’ lives, but they’re not a substantial group of people supported by governments and medical professionals.

Either you’re desperate or your prejudices really do run that deep.

Explain how what’s different?