To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

Even saying that makes just as much of a transphobe as the rest of us. It's either full access to all women spaces , or you're denting their rights and identity. There's no nuance. There's no "it's complicated".
You can't have it both ways ,especially when you're accusing others of being transphobic.

What about the "furries"?
I'm pretty sure in the new documentary Matt Walsh speaks to someone who identifies as a wolf (trans species?)

Would you be happy to affirm THAT identity? Treat them as an animal, be totally comfortable with them howling etc? Happy for them to teach your child at school for example?

Why is their identity any less than a male who claims the identity of a woman?
Why is it any different?

If you say they’re not women, you’re denying their identity

Nope. TWs identify as women all they like, but they are not women. Fact.

Ironically, you nailed it in the title of your thread: To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women? You're referring to a belief system, not a fact.

You're referring to a belief system, not a fact.

It sounds a lot like religious faith doesn't it? In direct contradiction to all scientific reality, I'll just keep repeating this mantra over and over and perhaps that will somehow make it true.

And to the absolutely endless cry of “TELL US WHAT A WOMAN IS”…

The people who believe trans women are women do not support an essentialist view of gender.

From Google:
Within feminism, essentialism becomes the view that there are properties essential to women, in that any woman must necessarily have those properties to be a woman at all.

I don’t subscribe to the essentialist view, so the CONSTANT demand to ‘tell us what a woman is’ is a meaningless one to people like me.

We don’t think ‘cis’ is a dirty or offensive term.

I am a feminist (lol try all you like to tell me otherwise) and I fully support trans people - this means I recognise their gender identity as they do.

As a previous poster said earlier, anyone who says “I support trans women but they are not women” is EXACTLY the same as anyone who purports to support a group WITH a qualifier e.g. “I support black people but don’t want them living in my country”, “I support gay people but don’t want them displaying affection in public”.

Oh, and BINGO me all you like.

We need the suicide mention to give you full house

Racism.. tick
Sexism... tick
DSD... tick

The people who believe trans women are women do not support an essentialist view of gender.

They dont support any definable view of womanhood. How can they assert to be something that has no definition? Why does this only seem to apply to male/female?

How can we live in a world where words/concepts don't actually have any objective meaning. Are you really this lacking in critical thinking?

Indeed one would wonder why dictionaries were invented in the first place.

Objective reality, anyone?

Lol.

I seem to exist perfectly easily in a world where trans women are women.

EXACTLY the same as anyone who purports to support a group WITH a qualifier e.g. “I support black people but don’t want them living in my country”, “I support gay people but don’t want them displaying affection in public”.

Cringing at this degree of dumbness.

You don't see any difference in qualifiers that deny scientific reality and those that don't? God help us all with this level of reasoning. 🤦‍♀️

No dear you don't
You exist in a world where transwomen are not actually women

*I seem to exist perfectly easily in a world where trans women are women.

Well seen you aren't given them any medical care then. 😆

If you say they’re not women, you’re denying their identity.

If I refused to say they are transwoman (what they call themselves) and refuse to address them as she or by the name they give themselves - then that would be denying their identity.

But identity and biologically are not the same thing.

It's rather like a toddler or small child screaming things they think are always gotchas without really knowing what they are saying

You don't see any difference in qualifiers that deny scientific reality and those that don't?

explains some of the arguments….

Lol. It’s so hilarious to me that all these tactics you accuse me of using is literally a description of your own behaviour in these discussions.

There’s absolutely no ‘gotchas’ in my argument. That’s why I said “I don’t subscribe to the essentialist view”. I accept that you all DO subscribe to the essentialist view of gender where biological sex is this magical trump card that negates anything else. And you believe that trying to pin me down with the “WHAT IS A WOMAN” question asked 10000000000 times will be the way to prove I’m wrong, because I won’t supply a definition that satisfies you.

We see the world differently. We see gender differently.

In my world, trans women are women.

And no amount of “BUT WHAT ABOUT cats/prisons/refuges” will change that.

Fine. Have twaw in your own world. No one is stopping you.

But when you impose your world on others, you get problems.

Pretty narcissistic to think your world = everyone else's reality .

I am so glad the world is waking up to this and we are now allowed to say how we actually feel RE trans ‘women’. It feels like for years we were all forced to believe trans women were women and if we dared say anything we could risk losing our jobs and become social pariahs.

In my opinion it’s a form of body dyspmoprhia which should be dealt with as such. The current way that they encourage transitioning is inappropriate for these individuals, we should be promoting therapy before we start offering life changing drugs and medical procedures.

""In my world, trans women are women.""

But meanwhile, in the REAL world which is perceived by objective, quantifiable, measurable facts, trans women are males.

There is no "your" truth.
Only THE truth.

Exactly. You see gender. We don't give a shit about gender, just sex.

I'm feeling slightly guilty for finding this thread hilarious. With allies like the OP transwoman don't need enemies.

OP I think you are quite confused and your arguments are incoherent, I have no doubt you mean well but really you are not doing trans people any favours. You seem to think feelings trump reality without actually considering the challenges of implementing law based someone's unverifiable internal sense of self and you refuse to see how open to abuse such a system would be. Your position is naïve in the extreme.

I do not have to validate someone's identity to treat them fairly and with respect.

Well obviously both sides want the world to reflect their view of it…

How on earth can you call me ‘narcissistic’ without any critical thinking of your own position when you literally want laws, public spaces, language etc to reflect your world view?

Unless you accept that you too are ‘narcissistic’ to want the world to reflect your values, then you can’t throw that word at someone else.

when you literally want laws, public spaces, language etc to reflect your world view?

Which is in keeping with scientific reality.

You forgot that bit.

Nope.

I'm more than happy to have my views and let trans people have theirs.

I just don't like to force others to see things my way. If I'm forced to defend my position I will, as in you asking the op. I wouldn't start a post like this though. I accept different people have different views. Something the trans lobby seems less tolerant of.