"gently move away from..." can fuck off

[MolliciousIntent]

If you'll pardon my french. But I've been trying to "gently move away from" feeding my baby to sleep (as advised by so many on here) and I just don't get how it's supposed to be possible without screaming! I remove the nipple, she thrashes, demands it back, and then sobs if she doesn't get it. As soon as she does get it, fast asleep.

And before I get a huge influx of people telling me to just go with it cs it's normal, I was completely happy to do that until a fortnight ago, when it became impossible to unlatch her without her waking up and screaming. She will literally only sleep with my nipple in her mouth. No amount of gentle this or that will do, it is boob or bust. Ive tried feeding lying down/safe cosleeping but I've got a bad back and literally cannot sustain the position needed for safe cosleeping/boobsleeping without waking up immobilised by pain.

She's 4.5m and I'm genuinely counting down the days to 6m when I can try Ferber.

Sympathies. I carried on feeding her to sleep until she was 3...but she would literally suck for 5 minutes and then be fast asleep. Contrary to most assumptions, she accepted it when I explained we weren't doing that any more. She just showed up at 5am, jumped into my bed and I would wake up to find her attached to my nipple! We now do a lot of work with soft toys and music instead, which vaguely works (I stopped breastfeeding a year ago but she still accosts those nipples...).

My baby only sleeps with my nipple in her mouth. I have resorted to lying on my side, propping my boob up with a muslin and popping her on. It isnt the comfiest sleep, but it is some sleep. We are 7 months and trying to figure out how to get her into a cot 😬

You have my sympathy! I remember it with my first! Didn't want a dummy or bottle it was exhausting. One thing that sometimes worked was to blow on their face as you take the nipple out. It apparently confuses their brain because it can't focus on both things happening at once.
Hope you manage to find something that works 🤞🏻🤞🏻

Well something's gotta give because I'm so fucking tired I just dropped the baby. A few inches, onto carpet, but still. She's now fast asleep with my nipple in her mouth.

@MolliciousIntent appreciate you've had a lot of responses, but you haven't said if you're from the UK.

I have noticed my LO has struggled to fall and stay asleep at the boob for the last week or so since the hot weather hit. Today our house is notably cooler and LO was able to stay asleep for a nap unlatched this afternoon, although he did feed for a long time. I'm hoping it's all just weather related.

Ignore judgemental comments about feeding to sleep. I would love to be able to put my baby in his cot and watch him fall soundly asleep, but he needs motion or sucking, as do a lot of babies. He refuses a dummy and I refuse to watch him cry himself to sleep (which IMO is less biologicallly normal than feeding to sleep).

Is she hungry? If she isn't getting into a full floppy deep sleep? I.e. is she snacking all night rather than getting a couple of big feeds.
My first thought too. My supply would be practically non-existent at night.

You poor thing, you must be shattered

Oh, this has only been happening for a week? Environmental factors most likely then. As others have said heat etc. What was her sleep like before? A week isn’t that long tbh and the methods PPs have mentioned usually take a few days to sink in. I know you’re tired but I think some perspective is needed before you go off the deep end.

@Calphurnia88 yes we're in the UK. Hopefully it is just the weather.

Did you call your local Laleche number or if you don’t have one locally the National helpline is open until 11pm www.laleche.org.uk/call/
it might be good to speak to someone that will support you rather than keep posting here. You do sound like you need a break.
The hot weather might increase feeding for hydration, but you say your baby is sleeping, not feeding.
In answer to your last question, yes falling asleep on the breast is natural, but if she has had a full feed and is using the nipple only as comfort (and age won’t let you settle her) it’s better to hand her over to your partner to put her in to her cot and you rest in another room for 2-3 hours. It’s also helpful to get her used to going into her cot sleepy but awake. She’s naturally waking up now so in a new phase. Obviously she’s learnt how to keep you attached to her for her own comfort, but you need proper breaks to rest in her interest as well as yours. Please do talk to someone, not just on here.

*she not ask

Live updates - we're on the sofa, she's asleep, I've reclaimed my nipples, so far so good except I forgot to make myself a G&t before I got started and DH is out, so I have only a partial victory.

I haven't RTFT. But you don't have to wait 6 months until starting Ferber, some start at 4 months or later at a year, I read. I suspect many of us were doing a version of Ferber without realising it, or perhaps without having any formal plan to follow, many years ago. Do what's right for you/your family and your sanity in the kindest way for your baby that you can manage of course. Certain babies in our family (multigenerationally) have been known to be those that scream and scream no matter what gentle or non-gentle way the parents tried to improve sleep patterns or wean etc. so while I wouldn't start with this of course, it turns out that some parents likewise have to get used to some screaming at some point (or have a very drawn out problem over a number of years which isn't necessarily good for the wellbeing of the parents, or at least the mother, other children in the home, or necessarily I suspect, the child).

The other gentler solutions look worth a try too, I'm not necessarily advocating for controlled (or uncontrolled!) crying but just saying that sometimes the gentler methods don't work with some babies, or just are not possible to take the time to work through because it's affecting one or both parents or the family as a whole just too much ie it has become an acute problem. One of mine had colic and screamed nightly, nothing was going to change that so we just had to go with it, we really did try all manner of kind methods (which didn't work) and medication (worked a bit, not much). We worked through it as best we could with good advice from various healthcare professionals and others and I don't feel any guilt about it at all. I know your problem isn't colic but any of these problems may have different solutions with different babies/families, there is no one right answer. Same with a few other things that weren't 'textbook' but we were doing our holistic best with. All the children are now happy healthy adults. It matters how you parent overall but the exact details of how you solve this particular problem don't matter quite as much as you feel they do right now OP, I hope you see what I mean.

Threads like these make me so sad, because we seem to have forgotten that it doesn’t have to be this way.

I wish HVs and midwives would give better advice on feeding and sleeping. So many of the issues people face are because they’re not taught how to avoid these long-term issues.

I followed a set routine (there, I said it) and my babies never had to be ‘Feberized’ or anything ‘ized’ or left to cry because we never got to the stage where we had these problems. Sure, we had the odd blip, but generally I never had to get up more than twice a night. Ever. I was therefore better able to enjoy my baby because I had had some sleep.

I’ll get flamed for saying it, but following a feeding routine, making sure my baby was awake for some time after each feed and putting her into the cot awake meant we never ran into these problems (with three babies).

What mums are going through now is damaging to their mental and physical health, all because we’ve been told it’s bad to let a baby cry or be ‘abandoned’ to sleep.

Never mind the damage the cortisol will do to your baby - what about you?!

I don’t care what people say - letting your baby cry for a few nights to get out of this situation will NOT do her any harm. And you will get your life back.

(FWIW, I would persevere with the dummy as it sounds like she’s a sucky baby).

@Tadpoll I don't think it's particularly supportive to post on a thread where the mother of a young baby is losing her mind due to sleep deprivation to boast that your baby slept well.

I also fed broadly to a routine because it suited me and my babies. However I also followed their cues and was more than happy to feed or rock to sleep early if they seemed to need it that day.

My eldest was a terrible sleeper and nearly killed me. My youngest was a fantastic sleeper who never had me up more than twice a night, and so I was never too tired on maternity leave, and I certainly enjoyed her baby months more than her sister's. That wasn't my skill, I didn't do anything different, they're just different people and we got lucky sleep wise the second time around.

What your post should have said is "Gosh OP, that sounds so hard. I won't offer advice as I was lucky with my baby's sleep, but I hope things improve for you soon."

Last night was MUCH better, I think PPs must have been on to something when they mentioned the weather because it was loads cooler and she was so much easier to detatch. I also handed her over to DH in the evening and got an extra hour of sleep while he settled her, she woke twice (standard) and the first time was back down in half an hour, second time was much harder so after an hour I passed her to DH again, and she settled for him in 5min.

Thank you all for your advice and insight, it's been largely very helpful.

Delighted things have picked up for you OP.

Glad you've seen an improvement OP. DH cosleeping would have been my suggestion, with bringing baby to you for her night feeds and taking her back afterwards. Exhausting for both parents but would break the cycle of her needing your nipple for comfort to sleep and likely wouldn't be needed for too long.
Good luck going forward.

We were all in our room together last night and she went in her cot, which was lovely, but I can see separate rooms being necessary on and off in the future!

So glad you had a better night OP! It's still very hot in my neck of the woods, hoping it'll cool down soon. Never thought I'd say that!

@Tadpoll either you have singlehandedly the solved the problem of independent infant sleep (in which case you should really consider going into sleep consultancy, given it appears to be a very lucrative, global industry) or - more likely - you have had unicorn babies.

There is not a chance my baby would just fall asleep simply after putting him in his crib (trust me, I've tried) and most mums I know have to support their babies to sleep. It's probably why the sleep industry is so lucrative.

I would be genuinely interested in hearing your routine, if you're happy to share.

I don’t know what the point of your post is?

I never said it was ‘skill’. But neither is it luck. I think mums are being given terrible advice by healthcare professionals and so many of them are ending up horribly sleep deprived. Once it gets to that stage, there isn’t really a ‘gentle’ option unfortunately - there will be some crying involved.

I think less helpful are the posters who are telling OP that letting her baby cry will damage it. That’s become the narrative now and I think it’s really damaging for maternal health.

(I also never said that I didn’t follow my babies’ cues.)

There is not a chance my baby would just fall asleep simply after putting him in his crib (trust me, I've tried) and most mums I know have to support their babies to sleep. It's probably why the sleep industry is so lucrative.

This is my point. The sleep industry is so lucrative because mothers are being given bad advice by HVs and books. They need to be told that although it’s fine to choose attachment parenting styles - feeding to sleep, co-sleeping etc - there are potentially problems that come later down the line when you want your life back/some sleep. Some mums would still choose that, but I think many aren’t being properly informed.

I’m aware it’s an unpopular opinion but I think it needs to be said. Maybe not here, granted, but there are many, many of these threads and I feel for the OPs so much. Yet the narrative is still that this is just what motherhood is like.

@Tadpoll you're attributing to your parenting skills/philosophy what is much more likely down to luck.

I attempted exactly what you set out with both children and ended up with hungry, overtired, miserable babies after a handful of days and quickly sacked it in. You either had easy babies or you were much more comfortable with inflicting distress on newborns than I am.

The first six months are vital for infant development and there is so much research that suggests that highly responsive parenting of babies creates securely attached, independent children. I'm very comfortable with that approach, just a little frustrated by the need to chew on my nipples.