"gently move away from..." can fuck off

[MolliciousIntent]

If you'll pardon my french. But I've been trying to "gently move away from" feeding my baby to sleep (as advised by so many on here) and I just don't get how it's supposed to be possible without screaming! I remove the nipple, she thrashes, demands it back, and then sobs if she doesn't get it. As soon as she does get it, fast asleep.

And before I get a huge influx of people telling me to just go with it cs it's normal, I was completely happy to do that until a fortnight ago, when it became impossible to unlatch her without her waking up and screaming. She will literally only sleep with my nipple in her mouth. No amount of gentle this or that will do, it is boob or bust. Ive tried feeding lying down/safe cosleeping but I've got a bad back and literally cannot sustain the position needed for safe cosleeping/boobsleeping without waking up immobilised by pain.

She's 4.5m and I'm genuinely counting down the days to 6m when I can try Ferber.

That sounds really tough, @MolliciousIntent. Sleep deprivation and back pain suck by themselves, let alone in combination.

My DC is 4 months old and primarily breastfed, and they can sometimes struggle with the removal of a breast after falling asleep (not to the same level as you're describing, though!).

Some things that have helped us when DC is struggling with it (I don't know if they'll help or if you've already tried them)...

• Wearing a fresh nursing bra and top at bedtime (to reduce the smell of milk posing a distraction).
• Distraction with other comforting things (favourite music, comforter).
• If DC is getting upset about the boob or lack thereof, having DH come in to comfort (DC can get skin-to-skin but not with a functioning boob causing distraction and distress).
• Taking the night in shifts - if your DC will take a bottle and accept comfort from their dad, this combination might be tolerable for some of the night, and you can get some rest.

Splitting the nights into shifts was a real sanity-saver for us. Unless DC is unwell or extremely upset, it means each of us gets at least 4 hours continuous rest. It might help you, I don't know?

Is she hungry? If she isn't getting into a full floppy deep sleep? I.e. is she snacking all night rather than getting a couple of big feeds. The equivalent of us having a cracker every 30 mins rather than 3 big meals a day. Even if she's getting enough milk overall it'll leave her pretty irritable and unwilling to leave the milk bar.

Could you try a couple of days of really boosting your supply: eating loads of oats, lots of skin to skin, litres of water, etc. I appreciate it's easier said than done but my baby has done this when my supply has dropped a bit (me being unwell, period, back to work etc.) But as soon as I can get back to big satiating feeds he's happy to unlatch and sleep in his cot and the all night snacking stops.

I also have a bottle and dummy refuser so I feel your pain!

Some Posters
Something I wish more parents would accept much, much sooner is that at some point your baby has to learn that screaming isn’t going to get them what they want anymore

sometimes your baby is going to cry because they aren’t getting their own way… trying to placate them at all costs will turn them into entitled arseholes and you into a jibbering wreck

Personally I don't believe that when a baby is a few months old they are capable of the thought processes necessary to be deliberately manipulative .I might be wrong but this is what I think your post suggests .

me being there and smelling of milk was the distraction keeping her awake at that point it really isn't always that simple .

We're all different - I tried CC with my son .Gave up when it had to be repeated after any blip ( new tooth ,visit to grandmother ) .Son is not an entitled arsehole he is thoughtful ,kind ,endlessly patient with the autistic children he works with .

OP all I can say is I sympathise, I remember vividly these days/nights both my DC were the same. Nothing worked (also wouldn't take a dummy) and they woke practically every hour, I couldn't do cc and they both just wanted me as exclusively breastfed. I remember going back to work and I was so tired I was thinking I'd rather be dead.

All I can say is it does pass, as you know with your first DC. Get your DH to do some of it and keep in mind that it's not forever!
Sending sympathy and lots of coffee!

I think you are misunderstanding the point of OP's posts.

@Somethingsnappy

Youve the cheek to say I'm talking nonsense when you're spouting crap like cortisol is released in tears?!

I won't give advice OP as neither of mine had this problem, but will offer a voice of sympathy as sleep problems are the absolute worst. As are posters on MN who believe that their good sleepers were down to their parenting, or that what worked for them will definitely work for you. Nothing gets my blood pressure up on here like a sleep thread!

The only thing I will say is that if it's only been a week, and the baby is 4.5 months it may well be a combination of sleep regression (I genuinely don't know how I survived it with our first) and the weather.

Try some cooler clothes for bedtime if you can, and maybe a fan. Close the curtains in the room during the day to keep the temp down.

Would you be able to wait it out for a couple more weeks? Maybe not if you're literally getting no sleep - in that case there just might have to be some screaming. But if you can catch up on sleep during the day then maybe things will revert to normal in time.

I know that is hard when they stay on your nipple. Can you not just wait until she unlatches? I used to play candy crush while I waited.

Have you tried stopping while she's awake, so no letting her nod off on the boob. You then need to put her down and stay with her so she knows you are there but don't offer more feeding. She'll make a massive fuss but if you can stick it out then she may learn to settle. Take ear phones and a tablet.....

A quick Google search will bring up plenty of interesting scientific articles. I just looked and found too many to choose from! Just Google 'does crying release stress', and take your pick. It's not a big secret that crying is a stress release in humans. That's the point of tears. I'm quite surprised you didn't know that actually. That sounds a bit blunt and snippy, but I don't mean it unkindly. I'm just typing quickly.

She doesn't unlatch! Current record is 3 hours. I'd be a Candy Crush supermaster.

As I've just written above, a quick Google search will help you.

I think this is what I'm going to have to do. It feels very wrong to do something that I know will cause distress in a baby so little, but I'm not able to continue with no sleep indefinitely.

@Somethingsnappy

Crying helping to reduce stress in adults is not the same as cortisol physically being released in tears

OP, I was searching old posts of mine from years (over a decade ago). I found a post I'd written when DS was a similar age. I was completely beating myself up, I decided I'd made arid for my own back, that my baby was broken and I'd done something terrible that meant I couldn't implement any of the techniques the books were advocating. I got myself in a proper tizz.

The long and short of it is that we are all given the babies we are given. There seems to be very little we can do to influence how good or bad a sleeper we get, so we need to do whatever we can to stay sane and get through.

Your baby is at a brilliant point in their development (for them) at the moment which is AWFUL for you. They are figuring out how to crawl, roll, pull them self up to standing and many other skills. They are going to bed with a massive list of things they want to learn buzzing round their head and they are struggling to settle (much like we do when we have a huge to do list in our own heads). This will pass. Then will repeat itself a few months down the line when walking and talking and other skills monopolise their developing brain.

What might help a tiny bit is encouraging a good day routine. Don't bother trying ti encourage naps at certain times - you only get frustrated if your baby wakes or falls asleep and the wrong time and can't work out how to sync things up again. Instead let them wake in their own time, make a mental note of the time on the clock, and then aim to have them napping again 3-4 hours later (depending on how much awake time your baby is happy with). Good day naps can make a baby less overtired and frustrated at night.

Awake but drowsy NEVER worked for me. Drowsy would go to wide awake and angry if I tried to move him. Instead I fed to deep sleep and didn't even attempt to put him down until his arms were floppy and he was out like a light. Then when transferring him to his cot or basket, I'd place a heavy hand on his chest for a few minutes to trick him he was still being held if he stirred.

4-5 months is a truly awful time. You've done nothing wrong. It will pass.

Excellent response.

My daughter was exactly the same. I didn't have the emotional energy to resist until I was at absolute breaking point a week before her first birthday. I remember thinking that I physically could not feed her one more time, ever. I felt like I wasn't even a human being anymore. I just never breastfed her again.

The first night she howled for hours (in my arms). Second night wasn't so bad. The spell had been broken after a few nights and I soon got her hooked on bottles of cow's milk which had its own problems but to be honest, I didn't care by that stage.

I said I'd never do it again but my 4.5 month old is another devoted follower of the breast but doesn't seem quite as hellbent on the same level of vampirism as her sister 😀

No advice, just empathy.

Hi OP, it sounds like you are doing a very good job. If you don't want to do anything that would have her crying for ages until she is a bit olde, but she settles more easily with your DH, you can try wearing one of his already worn jumpers so you smell like him and she cannot smell you. Maybe she will be too smart for it but it worked with mine. Good luck.

I think this is what I'm going to have to do. It feels very wrong to do something that I know will cause distress in a baby so little, but I'm not able to continue with no sleep indefinitely.

I used Sleepsense. A bit more gentle than CC, but will still involve tears. I never looked back. You can DM me for details if you like. Definitely changing the bedtime routine so the feed isn’t that last thing will help. Also, a bit of advice I got was help them find their hands. My daughter would soothe herself rubbing her sleeve on her lips and sucking her tongue, it was so cute and worked a treat.

Just read up on it; it's quite interesting! You obviously haven't had the time to do that in between our replies to each other.

P. S. Hormones, including stress hormones, are released in tears. It's one of the main uses of tears.

The lack of sleep won't be indefinite even though it feels that way now - this age and then about 8/9 months were total fuckers with my boob monster who also needed nipple in mouth all night.

I just learned to keep it in there in the end, that way we all got the most sleep / rest. He's 6 now and no longer needs my nipple in his mouth to sleep 😄

You said this is new in the last week or two, this could be the 4 month deep regression where they have a massive growth spurt so would make sense that she's snacking all night and needing more comfort. Also the weather is really hot in the uk atm so your milk will be adjusting to that and she may be more thirsty rather than just hungry. Likely it's a combination of the two and it's just bad luck that it's boiling when she's hitting a growth spurt.

If it's worked before I would be feeding her then handing her over to your husband to put to sleep. She won't be able to smell your milk so she knows it isn't an option. And also why shouldn't he help with bedtime, it's only fair. Especially if it’s causing you so much discomfort and pain. He’s her Dad, use him. Good luck.

Up until a week ago she'd feed to sleep and then go down for a bit and that was fine, this is new,

Everything is a phase. Wait another week and things may have improved all by themselves.

Everyone's experiences are different, but in my experience, a lot of babies under 1 year don't sleep very well, and most toddlers over 2 years do sleep through the night- irrespective of what approach their parents took.

Oh and I had to sort of prop myself up a bit with a pillow not to get a bad back, probably against CS guidelines though