Archie Battersbee case

[whynotwhatknot]

I was just wondering why we're not allowed to post about this case-the deletion message mentioned it was ongoing so wouldnt be fair to the family

Charlie gards case was on going and there was numerous threads about it

Anyway if this stands maybe we can discuss

I dont understand her logic for saying this his brain is decaying theres nothing left

Very very few people are passing judgment. Much discussion has been had around the “armies” who seem to get something out of these situations and do nothing to help the family. In many cases, the armies make it worse. Of course Archie’s loved ones are traumatised, the “army” is unhinged and they do so much harm.

The army group is now private. Probably for the best.

It's wrong in a way I can't properly describe

Im uncomfortable about it for two reasons. The first is that it affords Archie no dignity or privacy.

The second is that Archie is dead. He’s been declared dead legally and his brain is rotting and has dropped off down his spine.

All cultures have rules and customs around dead bodies which doesn’t include ventilating them to simulate life.

Yes, I think that's the part that feels wrong. As awful as it is and as much as it's the outcome that no one would wish for, he's dead. It's tragic but he's gone and keeping his body going in this way is horrific. People say his mum needs more time but how much time is enough?

Yep, his brain is decaying. The rest of his body will follow. It must be distressing for the nurses caring for him. His mum praises him in the army group, then accuses them of slaughtering her son in the press.

I remember when GOSH had charlie gard there staff were being threatened

As I said on the previous thread, this may well be why names of staff have been kept confidential this time

They are being exploited by Christian Concern - latest video with family is really upsetting when you consider his medical status. No judgement on the family at all, of course you can't be rational when it's your loved one.

I'm not religious but I don't understand how it can be considered moral to do this.

christianconcern.com/news/this-is-not-just-a-fight-for-archies-life-its-a-fight-for-justice/

I have no doubt that it must be. And people who think Hollie ought to be given more time are saying a precedent should be set where family members can oblige hospitals to provide clinical staff to ventilate a decaying body. For an open ended period.

As was discussed by a pp, respect for dead bodies is very important across human cultures. Forcing doctors and nurses to violate the dignity of a deceased and decomposing body in this way, especially one belonging to a child, does a shit all over that.

Hollie has posted a video yesterday on the page just doing an update on Archie and she looks very pale and unwell. I think they've had a very stressful week, no wonder when members of her family have been kicking off and fighting with people on that other Facebook page and so on. She really needs some bereavement counselling and she's being whipped up by the army, that Christian group and younger members of her family instead.

She also mentioned the hospital are making casts of Archie's hands, I am not sure if she realises this is something the hospital will do when a child is nearing the end of their life

I do wonder if there should be media injunctions on these sort of cases. The CG case became a circus and I can’t believe that helped the parents in any way. I can understand why you wouldn’t want to let a child go but even if he wasn’t bread dead, you’d be condemning a child to a life being critically ill with a poor quality of life. I can’t see how that could ever be in the interest of the child. The rights of the child should always be paramount and not the interest of the parents.

The problem with media injunctions for this type of case is that it would conflict with the basic principle of open justice, and would probably feed into a narrative that the courts are colluding with hospitals to keep unspeakable crimes quiet.

I think this case specifically will lead to a case review and possibly adjusting the parameters for diagnosing brain stem death. It seems logical that it should. Surely objective data (MRIs, angiography, EEG) should be considered as diagnostics for this in the event cranial nerve tests are contraindicated.

As a heads up to anyone who has commented on the Dignity For All page, make sure your employer details are not visible on your FB profile as the Army are planning to contact employers en masse and report people for running a hate campaign against a 12yr old boy

Also could be worth making sure your profile is locked down with as little as possible visible as they've been posting profile pictures and names of people posting, presumably so that the Army can send them harassing messages.

Ella Carter is Archie's sister in law and one of the spokespeople for their campaign and fundraising so one can only presume that this course of action is sanctioned by the family.

The appeal is set for Wednesday and will be held in open court quth the oublic allowed to attend, potentially livestreamed too. The Army are going and members of Dignity For All have said they're going too. It's not going to go well, particularly if the ruling goes against the family.

I don't know why the other thread was taken down, it was imo, one of the most level headed conversations I had seen on here, factual, intelligent and non confrontational.
Those "people" on the Army page are nothing sort of thick!
This poor lad is dead in a bed, his BP is kept elevated by medication, he is being fed that his stomach cannot absorb, he is decaying day by day.
Time how much do they need, what families don't understand, is that his heart could give out at any time, his electrolytes can become deranged and this lead to an MI, and his mum may not be with him, whereby if they allow WOLST (withdrawel of life stustaining treament) they can be with him, hold his hand etc

Blimey!! That is quite sinister. I don't think anyone on Dignity for All has said anything bad really, they've disagreed with keeping Archie on life support indefinitely but they haven't been awful? The admin of the army group gives off a really bad energy.

The appeal is set for Wednesday and will be held in open court with the public allowed to attend

I didn't think it would be long - they try to prioritise sad cases like this for obvious reasons - but if you're imagining the "Army" making a scene in court I wouldn't worry. It's perfectly possible to clear a courtroom, and if they're too disruptive they'll be ejected and left to scream on the pavement

It appears the hearing is going to be live-streamed.

I can’t decide whether I want to watch it or not. I see both sides to the argument: the medical side versus a mother who can’t bear to lose her child.

I remember on one of the Archie FB pages a few weeks ago there was a woman who said she’d been in the same position as Hollie and that she’d refused to let her own son’s ventilator be switched off. She then went on to say that he can’t see, he can’t speak, he can’t swallow and he can’t move “but it’s better than nothing.”

My heart broke for that child. Is that the kind of life that should be inflicted on a previously perfectly well and healthy child who had an active life?

I have two young sons and being in this situation would be my worst nightmare. But I also can’t imagine the guilt I would feel if my child was left in a severely disabled state with absolutely no quality of life and nothing to enjoy in life and it was because of my own selfish reasons.

Whatever the outcome is on Wednesday it’s going to be so, so upsetting for everyone regardless of which side of the fence they are sitting on.

I see both sides to the argument: the medical side versus a mother who can’t bear to lose her child

IMO the two sides are the mother not wanting to accept reality and whether it’s ethically correct, or right, or culturally acceptable to ventilate a dead body to simulate life.

if you read the latest verdict, the facts are pretty clear. There has been no blood supply to Archie’s brain for over two months, his brain now looks like a brain one of the experts said he has only seen previously in dead people.

It has begun to rot (it’s necrotic) and part of it has dropped off and is at the base of his spine. Radiologically his brain stem has been deemed dead, and practically he has not “triggered” the ventilator with his own breaths at all. He’s not in a medically induced coma, he’s not being sedated; he’s inert, not breathing, with non reactive pupils and non responsive.

His pituitary gland is also destroyed and he can’t concentrate his urine and he is on replacement hydrocortisone and thyroxine as well as vasopressin (vasopressin is synthetic Anti diuretic hormone).

He’s not going to wake up because he’s dead.

So:
Given that Archie is beyond knowing or caring is it ok to keep him ventilated to appease his family, give them more time? Given his hormonal deficiency he would need to be managed in a specialised centre. If he wasn’t hormonally managed he’d pass enormous amounts of urine, there’s be no cortisol correction because he can’t do that either and he’d arrest from hypovolaemia quickly.

The “medical view” reflects the discomfort at having to intervene/interfere with what has legally been deemed a dead body. Would anyone be ok for this themselves, if their DH and children weren’t ready? Should there be staffed units where ventilated bodies are managed until their families are ready?

most people wouldn’t want this for their own body, I wouldn’t think.

Most people wouldn't want the state to be obliged to divert resources towards it either.

This ^^

The poor boy will die. It's not a case that he might recover if he was given longer - he doesn't have brain stem function.

Removal of ventilation & other interventions will allow him to have a controlled death with his family beside him.

AB's mum was on Sunday Morning Live today. I'll watch it soon. Sorry if it's already been mentioned

what did she say on the show

making factual comments isnt a hate campaign any emplyer shuld see that for themselves