To think it should have come out of her pocket money not my son's?

[Kiplingsroad]

My DC had to bring a small amount of money to an event for school yesterday. He brought it on the correct day and tried to give it to the TA and she said, no, you've already paid, you don't need to give me money.

She then came up to me today and asked me for money as he should have paid, she had made an error yesterday.

I asked him where it was and he said he'd lost it (he's 8 and probably put it in his pocket and it fell out in playground, I imagine.)

I said, sorry, he's lost it.

She said you still need to pay, he hasn't paid.

I said, but he had the money, he tried to do the right thing and pay you, and now he's lost it.

She then said, well, come inside and she found another teacher to translate (we're in Germany) and the conversation continued with her saying he shouldn't have lost it, he's going into year three, he needs to be more careful, and it should come out of his pocket money.

I said, look,the point is he tried to do the right thing and was stopped by you. Why should it come out of his pocket money if he then loses it? He shouldn't have had it on him in the first place to lose.

She was furious. She has form for being quite tough on him and has been for two years. He is having friendship issues, has just been diagnosed with dyslexia, and absolutely hates school. So in this case I felt it was unfair of her to blame him for her error, and chase me up.

WIBU?

For context, this is for an event at the school, so all money goes into a pot, and I spent plenty of money anyway - I actually bought a kid whose mum hadn't got there yet a bratwurst, so they did get the money in the end.

@NellWilsonsWhiteHair I’m in US /American and yes, unfortunately am aware of the attitude, though I have not personally ever witnessed this. It’s shocking to see someone openly make these comments.

@Kiplingsroad
That posters attitude made me realize you are doing the right thing. Originally I suggested you just go along, pay the money and don’t make a fuss. But that’s not right. It seems an unlikely mistake on her part that she didn’t take his money; I’d like to know which other children were told they didn’t have to pay by her.

@WibblyWobblyJane nobody 'openly said that'. You just have insanely poor reading comprehension and logic skills.

@pixie5121
Then people that challenge injustice when it arises is exactly what is needed there. Flapping your wings and trying to stop others from standing up for what is right makes you an important part of what keeps that culture operating.

It's more about the way you do it. It's a very direct culture. If you don't agree with something, you need to say it firmly, there and then, to the person's face.

The question in the OP is whether the OP is unreasonable to expect the TA to pay and yes, that is unreasonable. Her son lost the money and trying to blame the TA for that because she didn't take the money initially would be seen as pathetic.

The real issue seems to be that OP feels the TA is bullying her son. She might be, but making a fuss over 3 euros is just muddying the waters and making it far less likely she will be taken seriously.

@pixie5121 That’s a logical and non-offensive piece of advice.

Telling someone if they cannot handle a culture then not to live there, as you did, is awful and completely unhelpful.

I'm neither British nor German and I think your attitude was shocking.

If my kids lost money at school at 8yo, yes, I would have blamed them, not anyone else. 8yo are certainly old enough to be responsible with some money. Its not a case of telling him off but of teaching to take responsibility.

It has nothing to do with the TA. What if he'd lost the money before giving to her, who would you have tried to blame?

I really struggle with this culture of always blaming any fault on anyone else no matter the circumstances.

It isn't offensive, it's true. You just don't like it.

Ultimately, nowhere is going to change to suit you. Every country is going to have things that we as Brits find unpleasant and unsavoury. It's really a personal decision regarding what you can tolerate. And remember that what we see as normal and correct might not be what's seen as normal and correct there.

A lot of people on the continent would see it as poor parenting not to encourage a child to take responsibility for their own mistakes, even if the child has SEN. He still needs to grow up and live in the world. He'll need to get a job. The German attitude is a 'tough love' one, where he'll see there are consequences for his actions, and perhaps his parent should work with him to find ways to compensate for the ADHD, like a secure zipped pocket in his bag for money. Is that 'wrong'? Or is it just different?

I'm saying it isn't appropriate to barrel in when you're living in another country and tell people how things should be and how they should act. It's seen as arrogant. It gets people's backs up. And as much as you want to believe otherwise, it would get your back up if someone did it to you.

I think what you are describing is a stereotype of German culture, which doesn't actually exist in reality (in my experience of growing up in Germany and my parents and best friend still living there). Germans are not as "unbending" with rules and "tick box" exercises as the cultural stereotypes lead people to believe. It's also a very welcoming country (much more so than Brexit Britain). The only thing I must say Germans do not appreciate is you not learning their language.

@XelaM Thank you for clearing that up!

Having RTFT the whole situation is much larger than your OP.
I still say YABU to your OP in a vacuum. TA not ticking was her fault. Your son losing his money is his fault. Or more accurately, YOURS, for knowing he has organisational issues and not taking steps to remedy.

The context of the TA bullying your son etc is a separate issue altogether, and if she was delibrately having a go at him it's unfair, but then that's a different situation from the one outlined in the OP.

So next time, OP will know that the money will go in in a wallet in case it's not taken immediately as expected, the child will be drilled to keep that wallet in his bag.

OP, and the child will have learned from the experience

But the TA? What has the TA learned? How is the TA's treatment of children in general, and this child in particular have improved? Not at all is the answer.

At my (non-UK) school, if this happened for a school fund event (TBH, for a proper trip if it was a struggling family too), then it would be mentioned, but nothing would be made of it. We do tokens rather than bands, but I also know that the teachers and head keep an eye, and if a young child arrives with nothing or has a run of bad luck, or is particularly kind to another child, or just in general it seems like a good idea, they hand out bonus tokens without payment. Because otherwise, poor kids, kid from chaotic homes, kids with additional needs would miss out - and that's not the supportive environment my children's school tries to be.

iWhy do you think she hasn’t read the thread?

Because of what she wrote? That OP owed the money & that she should pay, with no reference to the fact that OP explained what the €3 was for (one general pot, to which she contributed in other ways) & that this teacher is likely intentionally being unfair to DS.

And she was repeating the same points as have been made already on the thread.

The real issue seems to be that OP feels the TA is bullying her son. She might be, but making a fuss over 3 euros is just muddying the waters and making it far less likely she will be taken seriously.

A lot of people on the continent would see it as poor parenting not to encourage a child to take responsibility for their own mistakes, even if the child has SEN. He still needs to grow up and live in the world. He'll need to get a job. The German attitude is a 'tough love' one, where he'll see there are consequences for his actions, and perhaps his parent should work with him to find ways to compensate for the ADHD, like a secure zipped pocket in his bag for money. Is that 'wrong'? Or is it just different?

So next time, OP will know that the money will go in in a wallet in case it's not taken immediately as expected, the child will be drilled to keep that wallet in his bag.

OP, and the child will have learned from the experience

Agree with all of the above.

I think the backstory with the teacher being too hard on your son and unsupportive re. dyspraxia and friendship issues may have made you a bit paranoid about this particular incident. The idea that she intentionally refused his money to set him up to fail seems pretty outlandish, tbh. It's much more likely that this was an honest mistake and - unlike some posters claim - a very easy one to make as well. She had probably collected the money from a child whose name was directly above or below you son's name on the list and just ticked off the wrong name or got your son mixed up with another child.

Yes, the teacher may be partly to blame and she could have been nicer, but I honestly think in Germany kids at that age would be expected to have a wallet in their backpack and be able to handle small amounts of money. My sister's eight-year-old has her bus pass, some money, a copy of her insurance card and a mobile phone in her backpack (she's also in Berlin). My neighbours son (who has SEN and doesn't seem particularly mature) made his own way home from school at that age using the underground.
I know all kids are different and that you've said that this is not your parenting style and that's absolutely fine. But the teacher isn't a monster just for having expectations that are very normal in the given cultural context.

If you feel your son has been let down by the school and a teacher who doesn't like him or even bullies him, of course you should complain. But aim more for a general review about what should be done to better support your son in the coming school year rather than making it about this particular incident. You will look petty, difficult and unwilling to teach your child responsibility which will then lead to any future justified complaints being taken less seriously.

From my own experience (although times have probably changed somewhat), I would absolutely agree that many German schools don't do anywhere near enough to crack down on bullying. As a previous poster said, there is definitely an attitude of 'this is normal childhood stuff' and 'let the kids sort it between themselves'. It's shameful and needs to change. If this is the case at your son's school (the suggestion that he should just make new friends sounds like it), I really feel for him and can also understand why you're this upset about a fairly minor incident. But you still won't be doing your son any favours if you complain about €3 and tell them any money must go through you in the future. Hard as it is, you need to pick your battles and concentrate on addressing the real issues instead.

So essentially what you mean is, this poster didn’t agree with you - and the only way you can explain that is by assuming she hasn’t read the whole thread.

Seems to be a lot of this going on lately

So essentially what you mean is, this poster didn’t agree with you - and the only way you can explain that is by assuming she hasn’t read the whole thread.

Er, no? What a strange response 😳

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. The poster ignored OP's explanations (not mine) and repeated points that have been made many times previously in the thread, and addressed by OP

Hope that's clearer for you.

Seems to be a lot of this going on lately

Well it wasn't going on with me 🤷🏻‍♀️

Appears the PP didn't read my post clearly & jumped to an incorrect conclusion

Seems to be a lot of this going on lately

Yep. Anyway, OP, you're completely right. He should take the supersoaker to the party.

The bit that really amused me was when the adult TA, who'd made the original mistake, had the gall to suggest that your 8-year-old should be 'more careful'.
What's German for "pot/kettle"?

Even in super-efficient Germany, all 8yo kids aren't equally able to do things like manage money.
Just as all TAs aren't able to avoid mistakes like the one this TA made.
Perhaps she was only following orders?

Yes good point - he actually came up with a solution himself today - said he needs shorts with zips. I don't think there will be any money until the end of term so I won't mention that.

CheeseComa Thanks for that post - all points I will consider. Lucky it's the weekend and I have time to think over my response. Yes the bullying is bad here - I need to teach him to speak up, kids are very quick to discipline each other, it feels a bit Lord of the Flies in the playground but there are some sweet kids too, he just needs to find them.

XelaM yes it's a bit of a stereotype but there are always some truths in them, much as we don't like to admit it. Germany is wonderful in many ways, I actually respect the tick boxing because it makes everyday life run so smoothly and the way that Ukrainians have been welcomed has been incredible. I do sometimes find the toughness of the older generation hard to deal with, such as this TA. We aren't in the 1980s anymore and the way that we educate children has changed.

@EarringsandLipstick Your poor nephew. I can only imagine.

Lucky it's the weekend and I have time to think over my response.

Sounds very sensible, Kiplingsroad, always a good idea to give yourself some more time to calm down first and see how you feel in a couple of days.

I hope things improve for your son and that the new school year brings a more supportive teachers and nice new friends!