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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Be concerned about the spread of red pill ideology?

187 replies

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 12:44

A younger male relative that I am close to has recently fallen under the influance of certain online male commentators or activists who preach red pill ideology, which appears to be extrapolated from evolutionary psychology and reduces relationships between the sexes to something purely transactional and women to little more than sex objects whose only value is their repoductive use, beauty and youth. I did do some investigating reading some forums, watching youtube videos of men who are mgtow (going their own way), pick up artists and men who just seem to live for hating women. I've heard statements that women are not really people the way that men are, that women are not capable of rational thought and operate purely on instinct to gain the most resources for themselves and their children and so on.

There is a channel on youtube which can't go a minute without refering to women as 304's which is code for "Hoe" and they openly use that language about women in the videos and the misogyny was awful. I reported these videos to youtube and to ebay who had their adverts running before them but have heard nothing back. According to many of these channels women are worthless beyond the age of 25, 35, 40. There are attitudes that women should not be allowed to work, to vote to hold political office and that all the evils of the world are due to the stupidity and inate badness of women (where have a heard this before I wonder?).

Some of it does appear to be the result of trauma in men who may have been badly treated by a specific women or had their heartbroken which leads them to say they are done with women and relationships. Thats totally fine, I see it on here are well that there are women, perhaps lots of women who decide to opt out of relationships after suffering abuse or broken trust or even just deciding coupled life isn't for them, and obviously men have that right as well (I believe women only communities and even political lesbianisim has been a thing in radfem circles since the 70s). What I don't see is women making 1000's of youtube videos that obsess about women, that stir up misogyny, encourage extremist views, that feed certain mens hatred and fear of women. Also while these men claim to want to have nothing to do with women they are still for the most part obsessed with gaining access to sex with women especially very young women, admittedly I can't imagine they are having much success here but the whole attitude is malign and predetory and there appears to be real rage towards women they perceive as rejecting them or not having sex with them. They say women's standards are too high and that they should lower them to find a man ignoring the fact that many women would often choose to stay single rather than be with a man she doesn't want to be with, surely that kind of freedom is a basic human right for both sexes?

I do think that men are in a difficult phase at the moment, that some of them are struggling to adapt to women's continuing emancipation, that there are areas where men and boys are being failed in education for example. I don't think its a bad thing that men what to be able to talk about their issues and how to be a good man, have a good life, the freedom to choose different paths in life that might not involve being a husband or father that is fine, I don't believe it needs to be a zero sum game. The problem is that in the online space it seems impossible to have that without it degenerating outright hatred of women, dehumanising of women and threats against women.

Its tempting to ignore this as it feels like its something that just happens in dark corners of the internet but when you actually look its massive and probably popping up on the social media feeds of your sons, brothers, husbands and friends.

OP posts:
SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 12:47

Sorry in the section where I say about I don't see women making videos about women, I meant men. I don't see women making endless content about and how the hate them and want to control them.

OP posts:
Summerwhereareyou · 15/06/2022 12:50

Absolutely op

I really don't know where we are heading in future!
Erasing women basically!.

MargotMoon · 15/06/2022 12:57

Of course YANBU

DeaconBoo · 15/06/2022 12:59

Yep, this is hugely concerning.
Laura Bates - Men Who Hate Women looks like an excellent read on the subject www.amazon.co.uk/Men-Who-Hate-Women-misogyny/dp/1398504653/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1655293943&refinements=p_27%3ALaura+Bates&s=books&sr=1-2 k (not read it yet but must!)

YouCantSpellAmericaWithoutErica · 15/06/2022 13:21

It’s very concerning because it has enough of a following that just gets bigger, and one group of people hating another group of people is dangerous.

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 13:33

That’s a good summary, and I agree that many of these men have had terrible experiences with women during their upbringing. Many of them are just bitter and unhappy. But it’s what some of them choose to do with their unhappiness that’s the concern.

SilverDragonfly1 · 15/06/2022 13:33

The Laura Bates book is excellent. I've known about this ideology for several years but found out a lot about how it ties in with political parties (particularly in the US) and the strong links to right wing groups. Also an excellent explanation of why youtube has a huge role in fostering this, not because the company is pro-incel in itself but because of the way their algorithms work.

SilverDragonfly1 · 15/06/2022 13:36

(Incel is short for 'involuntarily celibate' ie can't have sex with the beautiful and successful women they prefer and feel they deserve, regardless of their own looks and jobs...)

MissStarry · 15/06/2022 13:38

Yanbu

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 13:43

SilverDragonfly1 · 15/06/2022 13:36

(Incel is short for 'involuntarily celibate' ie can't have sex with the beautiful and successful women they prefer and feel they deserve, regardless of their own looks and jobs...)

I think the point they make is that in a random group of 10 men and 10 women, most of the men would date most of the women whereas most of the women would only date 3 or 4 of the men.

JustTheOneSwan · 15/06/2022 13:50

Why is it on the rise though?
Is it just a knee jerk reaction to rising feminism and equality or more sinister?
a friend of my DS has fallen down this rabbit hole and is pretty much isolated from his old friend group, sending memes and complaints about female dating strategy etc but I've known him and his Mum, Aunts, sister for twenty years. He hasn't had any obvious bad experience and his brother isn't like this.

DianaRossshair · 15/06/2022 13:55

JustTheOneSwan · 15/06/2022 13:50

Why is it on the rise though?
Is it just a knee jerk reaction to rising feminism and equality or more sinister?
a friend of my DS has fallen down this rabbit hole and is pretty much isolated from his old friend group, sending memes and complaints about female dating strategy etc but I've known him and his Mum, Aunts, sister for twenty years. He hasn't had any obvious bad experience and his brother isn't like this.

Isn't it all connected to the rise of extreme right wing / proud boys type mentality? Are incels more commonly white men? Is is just another facet of a general white / male / right extremist / gun toting / Trump supporting toxicity in the West?

blacksax · 15/06/2022 13:58

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 13:43

I think the point they make is that in a random group of 10 men and 10 women, most of the men would date most of the women whereas most of the women would only date 3 or 4 of the men.

Well they need to take a good look at themselves and work out just why that is then. Women don't choose with their eyes in the same way that men do. Men don't have to be good looking, they just need to be a nice bloke.

Entitled self-absorbed misogynistic swines are not going to find it easy to get a woman to jump on their dick, are they?

Whitesapphire · 15/06/2022 14:03

It is frustrating, I try to think that men can waste their time embarrassing themselves with this nonsense and women as a social class will just keep moving forward.

Eeksteek · 15/06/2022 14:04

Ah, the Disenfranchised White Male. Can’t get away with the misogyny and privilege of his forefathers and is pissed about it. He sees his lack of any sort of adult achievement not as his own failing, but because the success that is rightfully his has been stollen by women who have done nothing to deserve it. They are incredibly dangerous people. I read somewhere that they are the main perpetrator of school shootings in the states.

I have no idea how to stamp this out. It’s abhorrent. I’d always thought that although progress was slow, society was getting there. But just lately, I’m not so sure….

inmyslippers · 15/06/2022 14:10

Why is it on the rise though?
Is it just a knee jerk reaction to rising feminism and equality or more sinister?

^^ I think more women are choosing to be single. Online dating is massively skewed. Women will swipe right on 5% of men and men will swipe right on 60%. The women on the sites are all trying to date the top men. Leaving lots of single sexless men angry that were hypergamous by nature. Whereas women will prefer to be single instead of lowering their standards.

Freerangechildren · 15/06/2022 14:11

We have noticed a few men (all married weirdly) definitely going down that road. Unfortunately they barely cover it up, in comes out in almost everything they say. It is unnerving and we have had to drop a few friends as a result.
One is married to a very strong capable woman and I wondered why he feels like he does, and more strangely why she is putting up with his views (she tells him off like a naughty school boy when he starts after a few drinks) It is very sad.

Freerangechildren · 15/06/2022 14:13

I have no idea how to stamp this out

With the political will a lot could be done through new laws and legal channels. It needs to be more highly publicised so that people are aware of how insidious it is, and how dangerous it will become allowed to erode at society.

Naunet · 15/06/2022 14:16

inmyslippers · 15/06/2022 14:10

Why is it on the rise though?
Is it just a knee jerk reaction to rising feminism and equality or more sinister?

^^ I think more women are choosing to be single. Online dating is massively skewed. Women will swipe right on 5% of men and men will swipe right on 60%. The women on the sites are all trying to date the top men. Leaving lots of single sexless men angry that were hypergamous by nature. Whereas women will prefer to be single instead of lowering their standards.

For god sake, isn’t it convenient how they’re all about “nature” until it works against them? Of course women will be more fussy, most female animals are, it’s not our fault they’ll stick their dick in anything (human or not) 🙄

They're pathetic, entitled, weak little men that need breeding out anyway.

OneTC · 15/06/2022 14:23

Why is it on the rise though?

I don't think it's on the rise as such, being a loser used to be a fairly solitary activity, now it's more connected and social and consequently more valid seeming

DeaconBoo · 15/06/2022 14:23

I think part of the reason for it being on the rise is the relative new-ness of being able to find literally anything on the internet 100 times over.

We're yet to catch up with this, and we only have so much time to pay attention to things, so the crap that hits the sweet spot of being most attention-grabbing + confirms our existing misogynistic biases + is packaged in an appropriately edgy way + exploiting psychological biases means + Youtube algorithms means that people can become immersed in this with relatively little effort.

Combined with the lack of critical thinking that's encouraged by many in power (who would rather people didn't question what they say and do) and the fear of white males losing the lion's share of the power they do have in the face of any tiny movement towards more equal practices/diversity and you have the perfect gift for any little misogynist who wants to blame someone else for their own unhappiness.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 14:23

@DeaconBoo I have ordered Laura Bates Book and Nina Powers "What do Men Want". I listened to podcasts with both women discussing their books and I am interested in both takes. I get the impression that Laura's book goes more into the "what" and that Nina's asks more about the "why". I think they would both be a good read. Nina was once a lecturer of mine and I have huge respect for her as a human and an intellectal although I gather she is something of a controversial figure these days.

@SilverDragonfly1 I do remember stumling on the manosphere (roosh v, love shy men (todays incels) and mgtow) about 10 years ago and discussing it with a male friend who was very dismissive of the whole thing and didn't recognise any of it in his own attitudes or his friends. In the end I found it so negative and toxic that I did just try to forget about it and hoped it would burn itself out as a movement but it only seems to have become more pervasive and nasty as time has gone on. I'm noticing that it is also an industry where certain men and even some women are feeding the base aspects of these mens misery and then milk them for patreon or youtube subscriptions, donations, courses that promise to teach them how to manipulate women into sex. I also notice that very few of these red pill gurus actually live a mgtow life or are shacked up with a harem of 20 something babes which leads me to believe that much of the content is a cynical ploy for financial gain but the harm that the content does is real. I almost feel that it is a form of self harm for the men who consume such content and absorb its toxicity.

OP posts:
DeaconBoo · 15/06/2022 14:27

Whitesapphire · 15/06/2022 14:03

It is frustrating, I try to think that men can waste their time embarrassing themselves with this nonsense and women as a social class will just keep moving forward.

It's a bit of an arms race. We can keep helping women to critically evaluate the shit they come out with and they will find new ways to trick, hurt or kill women.

(Two women a week are killed by their current or former partners in England and Wales; this has remained fairly consistent for as long as I can remember).

DeaconBoo · 15/06/2022 14:28

I have ordered Laura Bates Book and Nina Powers "What do Men Want". I listened to podcasts with both women discussing their books and I am interested in both takes. I get the impression that Laura's book goes more into the "what" and that Nina's asks more about the "why". I think they would both be a good read. Nina was once a lecturer of mine and I have huge respect for her as a human and an intellectal although I gather she is something of a controversial figure these days.

Thanks for the other recommendation! I will see if I can get from the library.