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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Be concerned about the spread of red pill ideology?

187 replies

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 12:44

A younger male relative that I am close to has recently fallen under the influance of certain online male commentators or activists who preach red pill ideology, which appears to be extrapolated from evolutionary psychology and reduces relationships between the sexes to something purely transactional and women to little more than sex objects whose only value is their repoductive use, beauty and youth. I did do some investigating reading some forums, watching youtube videos of men who are mgtow (going their own way), pick up artists and men who just seem to live for hating women. I've heard statements that women are not really people the way that men are, that women are not capable of rational thought and operate purely on instinct to gain the most resources for themselves and their children and so on.

There is a channel on youtube which can't go a minute without refering to women as 304's which is code for "Hoe" and they openly use that language about women in the videos and the misogyny was awful. I reported these videos to youtube and to ebay who had their adverts running before them but have heard nothing back. According to many of these channels women are worthless beyond the age of 25, 35, 40. There are attitudes that women should not be allowed to work, to vote to hold political office and that all the evils of the world are due to the stupidity and inate badness of women (where have a heard this before I wonder?).

Some of it does appear to be the result of trauma in men who may have been badly treated by a specific women or had their heartbroken which leads them to say they are done with women and relationships. Thats totally fine, I see it on here are well that there are women, perhaps lots of women who decide to opt out of relationships after suffering abuse or broken trust or even just deciding coupled life isn't for them, and obviously men have that right as well (I believe women only communities and even political lesbianisim has been a thing in radfem circles since the 70s). What I don't see is women making 1000's of youtube videos that obsess about women, that stir up misogyny, encourage extremist views, that feed certain mens hatred and fear of women. Also while these men claim to want to have nothing to do with women they are still for the most part obsessed with gaining access to sex with women especially very young women, admittedly I can't imagine they are having much success here but the whole attitude is malign and predetory and there appears to be real rage towards women they perceive as rejecting them or not having sex with them. They say women's standards are too high and that they should lower them to find a man ignoring the fact that many women would often choose to stay single rather than be with a man she doesn't want to be with, surely that kind of freedom is a basic human right for both sexes?

I do think that men are in a difficult phase at the moment, that some of them are struggling to adapt to women's continuing emancipation, that there are areas where men and boys are being failed in education for example. I don't think its a bad thing that men what to be able to talk about their issues and how to be a good man, have a good life, the freedom to choose different paths in life that might not involve being a husband or father that is fine, I don't believe it needs to be a zero sum game. The problem is that in the online space it seems impossible to have that without it degenerating outright hatred of women, dehumanising of women and threats against women.

Its tempting to ignore this as it feels like its something that just happens in dark corners of the internet but when you actually look its massive and probably popping up on the social media feeds of your sons, brothers, husbands and friends.

OP posts:
entropynow · 15/06/2022 18:27

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 15/06/2022 16:36

I agree, OP, it's frightening. The worst, to me, is the way it seeps out into mainstream everyday life. I've seen expressions like 'front hole' for vagina in print -- 20 years ago even the filthiest bunch of schoolboys probably wouldn't have said that in public. We now see the NHS referring to 'people with cervixes' rather than admit half the human race are women.

The whole gender identity movement seems to be an offshoot of this, relentlessly pushing towards the erasure of women.

Utter, dangerous rubbish. The red pill lot hate, despise and have physically attacked trans women.

FilterWash · 15/06/2022 18:32

Kerrangutan · 15/06/2022 18:24

@FilterWash my point was that writing off people who fall for ideology as 'bad people' is wrong because if we just see them as 'the bad people' then we think it will never happen to our brothers or sons because they are 'good people'. When actually it can and it does.

It's the equivalent of believing pedophiles are ugly old strangers who sit in white vans in residential areas when in fact it's more likely the pedo is your fun-loving uncle who plies you with sweeties and always gives the best hugs. You're creating this boogeyman when the reality is far more obscure and complicated.

But my main point was actually that humans aren't black and white and our psychology is usually far more complicated than that. Being drawn into something harmful / toxic can happen to anyone, even good people. Religious cult victims. Domestic violence victims. Anti-vaxxers. Flat earthers. Drug addicts. Suicide bombers. Rarely did they WANT to be the things they've became. They wanted something else being offered and were slowly chipped away at.

I'm not creating a boogeyman. This isn't the first time I've thought about this stuff. Most of my extended family on both sides were murdered by the Nazis (or their helpers).

I've unfortunately known more than one paedophile/convicted child abuser, a con man, loads of drug addicts, and many conspiracy theorists, among others.

(For what it's worth, in none of those cases was it much of a surprise - every time anyone I've ever known has been arrested, the type of crime (sexual, financial, drugs) has always been completely predictable - but this is a tangent.)

The idea I'm trying to get at is that to say "X is a good person" as if there is some sort of identifiable inner essence of a person that is either good or bad, separate from their actions, is nonsense.

People do good things or they do bad things. They don't exist as good or bad people separately from their actions. The people who perpetuated the Holocaust, people who abuse children, are not good people. By definition.

I am extremely uncomfortable with you including 'domestic violence victims' in that list. You have lumped together some very, very disparate things there.

EmmaH2022 · 15/06/2022 18:45

once again, I find myself wondering what happened to personal responsibility. I am not sure people are that easily influenced.

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 18:48

Fairislefandango · 15/06/2022 17:51

I think the point they make is that in a random group of 10 men and 10 women, most of the men would date most of the women whereas most of the women would only date 3 or 4 of the men.

Have sex with rather than date, I think. The incels think this is because women are shallow, grasping bitches who are only interested in the best-looking and/or wealthiest men. Whereas actually it's almost certainly more that women don't see men as sex slot machines and don't prioritise getting laid over meeting someone they actually like and have a connection with.

I don’t agree. I hear women say they won’t date (however you want to define that) men who are short, bald, earn less than a certain amount, don’t dress well, etc etc etc. This is their prerogative of course. But SOME women go on to humiliate these men and describe them as losers. (Just as SOME men are derogatory towards women, whether they be incels or alpha boors).

Not saying it excuses violence, as not all people who are bullied or treated badly go on to become violent. But many people who are violent have been treated badly by society and therefore feel they owe society Jack shit.

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 18:50

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 18:48

I don’t agree. I hear women say they won’t date (however you want to define that) men who are short, bald, earn less than a certain amount, don’t dress well, etc etc etc. This is their prerogative of course. But SOME women go on to humiliate these men and describe them as losers. (Just as SOME men are derogatory towards women, whether they be incels or alpha boors).

Not saying it excuses violence, as not all people who are bullied or treated badly go on to become violent. But many people who are violent have been treated badly by society and therefore feel they owe society Jack shit.

I’m talking about incels here - not child abusers.

SilverDragonfly1 · 15/06/2022 19:07

Yes, there's no obvious link to red pill and TRAs. Apart from anything else, a big part of the red pill philosophy, from Jordan Peterson's 'sort your life out' lectures to the hardcore incel groups is about Being A Real Man. A philosophy that considers women to be fundamentally weak and shallow, but at the same time the only important things in the world isn't going to be rushing to become a woman, or want to have a relationship with someone who isn't a biological woman.

One of the frustrating things is that the things they rail against are nothing to do with women. Women are not stopping them from being successful and wealthy, making the laws around divorce and custody that supposedly disadvantage men (as if) or actively creating a society where only the richest and most handsome men can have a wonderful life. There is a group that are doing that though. They're called 'rich white men' and they have always had a lot to gain from fending off potential competitors for the power and influence they wield. The woman-blaming movement is a godsend for them.

Kerrangutan · 15/06/2022 19:09

@FilterWash I put them in because I can say first hand I wholeheartedly believed a lot of the lies he fed me - and every single one of them I'd have laughed or rolled my eyes at before and after but for whatever complex psychological and emotional reasons, I believed them.

If you think I'm equating being a domestic abuse victim with being a suicide bomber or an anti vaxer as "the same" then I think you're being disingenuous.

My point couldn't have been any clearer. People don't wake up one day and decide that this is their life now, and neither were they always that way.

You asked why op referred to the someone close who'd been taken in by it as "basically a good person" and that's because he probably was (and maybe still is in all other aspects)? The same way someone who refuses the covid vaccine might have bought into a theory but was always basically a sensible person before and is still a mostly logical person now. The same way I always considered myself an intelligent, strong woman yet still let myself be controlled by an abuser, and despite that still think I am strong and intelligent.

That's what makes all these things so insidious IMO... the fact that people you think of as GENERALLY good / sensible / intelligent / kind / strong whatever in all the capacities you've known them can fall for it too.

It's because (as I said in my first response) humans and all our experience and psychology is just massively complicated and not black and white.

FilterWash · 15/06/2022 19:13

Kerrangutan · 15/06/2022 19:09

@FilterWash I put them in because I can say first hand I wholeheartedly believed a lot of the lies he fed me - and every single one of them I'd have laughed or rolled my eyes at before and after but for whatever complex psychological and emotional reasons, I believed them.

If you think I'm equating being a domestic abuse victim with being a suicide bomber or an anti vaxer as "the same" then I think you're being disingenuous.

My point couldn't have been any clearer. People don't wake up one day and decide that this is their life now, and neither were they always that way.

You asked why op referred to the someone close who'd been taken in by it as "basically a good person" and that's because he probably was (and maybe still is in all other aspects)? The same way someone who refuses the covid vaccine might have bought into a theory but was always basically a sensible person before and is still a mostly logical person now. The same way I always considered myself an intelligent, strong woman yet still let myself be controlled by an abuser, and despite that still think I am strong and intelligent.

That's what makes all these things so insidious IMO... the fact that people you think of as GENERALLY good / sensible / intelligent / kind / strong whatever in all the capacities you've known them can fall for it too.

It's because (as I said in my first response) humans and all our experience and psychology is just massively complicated and not black and white.

I think that your list includes a lot of very different types of things.

Some of them are indeed errors of thinking or patterns of behaviour that people can fall into and I wouldn't write them off for that reason alone. But not all of them.

Some ways of thinking, some actions and ways of behaving, are fundamentally not compatible with being a decent human being.

Not everything is black and white. But some things are.

TheWayoftheLeaf · 15/06/2022 19:54

Floogal · 15/06/2022 17:51

Whenever the subject of extreme mysogony comes up why is the fact that there is a skewed gender imbalance get overlooked? Even by these Incels themselves? Admittedly the ratio is not as bad as China, the Middle East or India (where you hear about rape murders on a different scale). Fact is there is a surplus of men, some of them may feel aggrieved or frustrated.

Also, when I think of an Incel Richard Richard from Bottom or Kevin the teenager come to mind. But women can also be Incels as well along with LGBTQ (see femcels or gaycels). Just the extreme mysogonists get noticed

Femcels have never committed mass murder in the name of their ideology. Uncles also Denny they exist rather than vice versa. Femcels don't take out their rage on people with violence and they are generally small communities sharing their woes over not having a relationship rather than not getting sex.

Basically they're women sad about being alone not sad about not getting dick and talking about how men owe them their bodies.

CaveMum · 15/06/2022 20:53

MontanaMountains · 15/06/2022 17:27

Women have ALWAYS tried to understand and help men, we’ve always supported them. I’m not convinced it’s helped much you're not wrong. Just look at the ridiculous gender movement - women expected to capitulate, budge up, relinquish our hard won rights etc. And anyone who thinks that this push against women is a right wing males phenomenon is very naïve. Left wing men are equally as misogynistic (if not a lot more so when it comes to gender ideology and removing sex based rights).

Agree with what you say about left wing men. There was a tweet from Her Royal Terfness JKR several years ago where she criticised a left wing bloke for calling Theresa May a whore that really stuck with me: twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/873207949564497920?s=21&t=qkeORsbx7DHaoWDdE1u5bg

DeaconBoo · 15/06/2022 21:39

The red pill lot hate, despise and have physically attacked trans women.

Of course they do, because they think that male people need to be "masculine" to be worth anything. They are vile, and the link between male = masculine and female = feminine needs to get in the bin, because that's where it's led us.

PyongyangKipperbang · 15/06/2022 22:39

Only read about the first quarter of this thread but I want to know (and apologies if someone has already said this) why it is illegal to post comments about hating and wanting to kill/harm a sector of society based on race or religion, that is terrorism and leads to prosecutions and jail but not based on sex.

Against women it is not only perfectly legal but legitimised by the likes of YouTube and Reddit et al so young men think its ok to follow these influencers. And they ARE influencers or rather....as I prefer to think of them....cult leaders.

We need this type of hate speech to be considered terrorism and treated as such. But it wont be because its "only" against women and the men who make the laws are a) safe and b) probably secretly agreeing.

UsernameNotAvailableApparently · 15/06/2022 22:44

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 15/06/2022 16:45

That's horrific, Username.Was this in the UK? USA? elsewhere?

This is, surprisingly, in a small town in SE England.

EmmaH2022 · 15/06/2022 23:21

Usernames so how do they get along with others in the small town?

Velvetcupcakes · 16/06/2022 00:37

@Eeksteek @DianaRossshair

I wouldn’t be so quick to assume race. My best friend (from the Caribbean) has two red-pilled brothers. She believes males from traditional (and becoming less so) machismo cultures are particularly vulnerable. They listen to Andrew Tate (more than 1.2 million followers on IG), Donovan Sharpe and I don’t know the other one she mentioned, but all three are BIPOC men.

Velvetcupcakes · 16/06/2022 00:52

To be clear, I think it’s a more diverse group of men than we realise.

Eeksteek · 16/06/2022 01:12

As a single woman I very occasionally come across a man who is clearly threatened by my single status. They generally start single mother-bashing, which is easy to shut down, since I’m widowed and therefore blameless in society’s eyes. (Single mothers should all be blameless, but of course are not, for broadly the same reasons). There will often be some sort of ridicule following that in the name of banter. I just disengage. How fragile does your ego have to be if someone you hardly know going it alone bothers you?! Two have turned out to be abusive. I’m assuming they don’t want their wives exposed to the idea that it’s possible to a fulfilled single woman. I suppose it’s dangerously subversive if you are invested in being a crappy husband and father.

I really do think the only way through this is for individual women not to stay with these individual men. The patriarchy (to which most men contribute unwittingly or not) must believe they need to step up or know they will be shipped out sharpish. Fewer women having fewer children (and that being accepted without question as an equally valid choice) will help. The Patriarchy really has to be shown they must earn the right to breed, now, by being decent people. They can’t force women into crappy relationships through lack alternatives any more. I challenge it online, not because I believe they will change, but to give other women the support to stand up to it. I suppose the whole red pill thing is the backlash. Twats.

MangyInseam · 16/06/2022 03:47

Yes, it's concerning.

From what I understand, red pi;;ing is actually not just about this sort of thing, it also often refers to other kinds of political ideas, some of which aren't really related to this.

I think it's worth trying to understand what its really responding to. There is something missing in western liberal culture that is leaving a really significant hole for a lot of young men. And when that happens something will jump in to fill it. Some of the things they are responding to in this stuff are based in ideas that have some validity, but they don't treat it in the right way. So whe you see young men who are looking at this stuff, it's maybe worth trying to give them some other options that are intellectually and spiritually and practically more satisfying that can try and fill in those missing links. ANd NOT stuff like Laura Bates.

MangyInseam · 16/06/2022 03:56

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 18:48

I don’t agree. I hear women say they won’t date (however you want to define that) men who are short, bald, earn less than a certain amount, don’t dress well, etc etc etc. This is their prerogative of course. But SOME women go on to humiliate these men and describe them as losers. (Just as SOME men are derogatory towards women, whether they be incels or alpha boors).

Not saying it excuses violence, as not all people who are bullied or treated badly go on to become violent. But many people who are violent have been treated badly by society and therefore feel they owe society Jack shit.

Research into radicalization shows that it flourishes when people don't have much to hope for. Which makes a lot of sense. And especially for men when they don't have any hope of a family life of their own.

Naan32 · 16/06/2022 05:14

But many people who are violent have been treated badly by society and therefore feel they owe society Jack shit.

I guess people who are violent should be treated well by society 🙄Not going out of your way to be a completely reprehensible misogynist has nothing to do with "owing society".

Which makes a lot of sense. And especially for men when they don't have any hope of a family life of their own.

Many, if not most, of these hateful men have families of their own because there are so many apologists that make excuses for and attempt to placate these types in their social circle instead of cutting them out.

Carpy88999 · 16/06/2022 06:50

SilverDragonfly1 · 15/06/2022 13:36

(Incel is short for 'involuntarily celibate' ie can't have sex with the beautiful and successful women they prefer and feel they deserve, regardless of their own looks and jobs...)

No they feel they can't sex with anyone and they're worthless due to to the 80/20 rule they believe in.

Lunar27 · 16/06/2022 07:19

MangyInseam · 16/06/2022 03:47

Yes, it's concerning.

From what I understand, red pi;;ing is actually not just about this sort of thing, it also often refers to other kinds of political ideas, some of which aren't really related to this.

I think it's worth trying to understand what its really responding to. There is something missing in western liberal culture that is leaving a really significant hole for a lot of young men. And when that happens something will jump in to fill it. Some of the things they are responding to in this stuff are based in ideas that have some validity, but they don't treat it in the right way. So whe you see young men who are looking at this stuff, it's maybe worth trying to give them some other options that are intellectually and spiritually and practically more satisfying that can try and fill in those missing links. ANd NOT stuff like Laura Bates.

Definitely this.

To be honest, I've never heard of red pill ideology and don't know what it's about, but from the snippets discussed here, doubt it'd interest me in the slightest (I'm a man btw).

But you're right about holes and the need to fill them. Jordan Petersen is one such man who has become an icon for right wingers and men who feel lost in a changing world where machismo and traditional maleness is getting progressively less acceptable. The voice of a generation allegedly.

Men like JP seem quite reasonable, have very convincing arguments, are able to debate incredibly well and are highly charismatic. I can see how he is like a saviour to men who are looking for something as he has all the answers.

Trouble is, society is full of holes nowadays and governments have no idea how to fill them in a meaningful way. People are slipping through but some groups are more concerning than others. We definitely need to try and understand them and how to give them more fulfilling lives, for all our sakes.

Ahgoonyegirlye · 16/06/2022 07:35

It’s worrying. I have a younger colleague - nice bloke on the surface, decent job, own house, successful - who has been single for the 10 years I have known him because if his ridiculous standards in ‘beauty’ when it come to women. He’s pretty average, balding, short for a man but the women he’ll entertain dating pretty much have to look like super models, and have brains too.
so the few chances he’s had with girls from work he’s dodged because they don’t meet his looks standard - I.e. they’re smart, and lovely but ‘average’ in looks. A bit like him.
he’s starting to get bitter about it, and has come out with some phrases that are straight from the incel handbook - tho he is more careful in work, on drinks out when he’s had a couple the poor me attitude comes out.
the women, gays, non-whites get all the opportunities now and white, MC men are ignored etc.
given that anyone above a detail level in our company are ALL white, MC men this is clearly rubbish but he’s having none of it.

StEthelburgaRose · 16/06/2022 08:45

Ahgoonyegirlye · 16/06/2022 07:35

It’s worrying. I have a younger colleague - nice bloke on the surface, decent job, own house, successful - who has been single for the 10 years I have known him because if his ridiculous standards in ‘beauty’ when it come to women. He’s pretty average, balding, short for a man but the women he’ll entertain dating pretty much have to look like super models, and have brains too.
so the few chances he’s had with girls from work he’s dodged because they don’t meet his looks standard - I.e. they’re smart, and lovely but ‘average’ in looks. A bit like him.
he’s starting to get bitter about it, and has come out with some phrases that are straight from the incel handbook - tho he is more careful in work, on drinks out when he’s had a couple the poor me attitude comes out.
the women, gays, non-whites get all the opportunities now and white, MC men are ignored etc.
given that anyone above a detail level in our company are ALL white, MC men this is clearly rubbish but he’s having none of it.

Yes. I think men are more choosy with looks than women are, and yet these people are claiming men would date any woman but women will only date the top 20%.

myuterusistryingtokillme · 16/06/2022 08:48

Ahgoonyegirlye · 16/06/2022 07:35

It’s worrying. I have a younger colleague - nice bloke on the surface, decent job, own house, successful - who has been single for the 10 years I have known him because if his ridiculous standards in ‘beauty’ when it come to women. He’s pretty average, balding, short for a man but the women he’ll entertain dating pretty much have to look like super models, and have brains too.
so the few chances he’s had with girls from work he’s dodged because they don’t meet his looks standard - I.e. they’re smart, and lovely but ‘average’ in looks. A bit like him.
he’s starting to get bitter about it, and has come out with some phrases that are straight from the incel handbook - tho he is more careful in work, on drinks out when he’s had a couple the poor me attitude comes out.
the women, gays, non-whites get all the opportunities now and white, MC men are ignored etc.
given that anyone above a detail level in our company are ALL white, MC men this is clearly rubbish but he’s having none of it.

I've noticed this too, plenty of average men seem to think that they 'deserve' a stunning woman with brains and a good job, are quick to reject anyone that doesn't meet the unrealistic bar they have set and then get bitter about being single

They don't seem to realise that the stunning women with brains and a good job will also have a bar and they are very unlikely to get anywhere near it

If they had more realistic expectations then maybe they would have a girlfriend