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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Be concerned about the spread of red pill ideology?

187 replies

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 12:44

A younger male relative that I am close to has recently fallen under the influance of certain online male commentators or activists who preach red pill ideology, which appears to be extrapolated from evolutionary psychology and reduces relationships between the sexes to something purely transactional and women to little more than sex objects whose only value is their repoductive use, beauty and youth. I did do some investigating reading some forums, watching youtube videos of men who are mgtow (going their own way), pick up artists and men who just seem to live for hating women. I've heard statements that women are not really people the way that men are, that women are not capable of rational thought and operate purely on instinct to gain the most resources for themselves and their children and so on.

There is a channel on youtube which can't go a minute without refering to women as 304's which is code for "Hoe" and they openly use that language about women in the videos and the misogyny was awful. I reported these videos to youtube and to ebay who had their adverts running before them but have heard nothing back. According to many of these channels women are worthless beyond the age of 25, 35, 40. There are attitudes that women should not be allowed to work, to vote to hold political office and that all the evils of the world are due to the stupidity and inate badness of women (where have a heard this before I wonder?).

Some of it does appear to be the result of trauma in men who may have been badly treated by a specific women or had their heartbroken which leads them to say they are done with women and relationships. Thats totally fine, I see it on here are well that there are women, perhaps lots of women who decide to opt out of relationships after suffering abuse or broken trust or even just deciding coupled life isn't for them, and obviously men have that right as well (I believe women only communities and even political lesbianisim has been a thing in radfem circles since the 70s). What I don't see is women making 1000's of youtube videos that obsess about women, that stir up misogyny, encourage extremist views, that feed certain mens hatred and fear of women. Also while these men claim to want to have nothing to do with women they are still for the most part obsessed with gaining access to sex with women especially very young women, admittedly I can't imagine they are having much success here but the whole attitude is malign and predetory and there appears to be real rage towards women they perceive as rejecting them or not having sex with them. They say women's standards are too high and that they should lower them to find a man ignoring the fact that many women would often choose to stay single rather than be with a man she doesn't want to be with, surely that kind of freedom is a basic human right for both sexes?

I do think that men are in a difficult phase at the moment, that some of them are struggling to adapt to women's continuing emancipation, that there are areas where men and boys are being failed in education for example. I don't think its a bad thing that men what to be able to talk about their issues and how to be a good man, have a good life, the freedom to choose different paths in life that might not involve being a husband or father that is fine, I don't believe it needs to be a zero sum game. The problem is that in the online space it seems impossible to have that without it degenerating outright hatred of women, dehumanising of women and threats against women.

Its tempting to ignore this as it feels like its something that just happens in dark corners of the internet but when you actually look its massive and probably popping up on the social media feeds of your sons, brothers, husbands and friends.

OP posts:
EmmaH2022 · 15/06/2022 15:45

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:42

"I think its valid to want to question the unquestioned spread of this sort of content and to ask why men and boys are so vulnerable to it."

I'm going to anwer myself here and say that perhaps something in the red pill message about what it means to be a successful man, even a good man is resonating with young men who perhaps can't find that elsewhere and that draws them in although they are perhaps unaware its it shot through with toxicity that for the most part only poisons themselves.

We can all be attracted to things that feed the baser aspects of ourselves (gossip for example) so I think its possible to see how attractive some men might find this sort of content.

Cross posting everywhere

material about being successful can be found everywhere, that doesn't seem a reason to lean to incel stuff.

inmyslippers · 15/06/2022 15:47

Just leave them to it I reckon. Most of them have nothing to offer women anyway so what’s the loss? They can stay in their basements.

^^ agreed if they turned their attention inward I'm sure life would be better for them.

Naunet · 15/06/2022 15:49

It gives them a get out. What isn’t appealing about hearing that all your problems are someone else’s fault? That the odds are stacked against you, that your a poor victims and there’s no way your life could turn out any differently because the Others have been working against you, taking everything you’re entitled to. It’s very appealing to a certain type of person.

TheWayoftheLeaf · 15/06/2022 15:49

Yeah it's all over TikTok. It's very dehumanising.

TheWayoftheLeaf · 15/06/2022 15:52

Although personally I think men are failing themselves when it comes to education. I don't know of any female specific education aid out there. We're beating them in academics because we simply try harder.

entropynow · 15/06/2022 15:52

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 13:43

I think the point they make is that in a random group of 10 men and 10 women, most of the men would date most of the women whereas most of the women would only date 3 or 4 of the men.

If you spell date f u c k, maybe. Anyhow, just bc women have standards they are bitches? Hmm.

Mayorquimby2 · 15/06/2022 15:52

The problem is leaving them to our doesn't work.

At a low level they try to recruit and radicalize other young and vulnerable men, at the extreme end some mass shooters have been strongly linked to incel culture

DeaconBoo · 15/06/2022 15:53

To a certain degree I can see you're point. I'd see them as analogous to the people roped in by Trump, Q anon, GB news, Alex Jones and Any other culture war bullshit campaigns.

Totally.
I think a big part of it as well is if you haven't reached the American Dream - which you've been told from birth you are entitled to have if you 'work hard enough' - then instead of realising all the inequality in the world and your own shortcomings, it must be incredibly attractive to have someone else to blame (immigrants, "immoral" people, women, people on benefits) - that absolves you from your own faults and focuses.

entropynow · 15/06/2022 15:53

@Naunet
Works for Trumpists, Brexiteers and Corbynists too.

twoblackdogs · 15/06/2022 15:55

I would say this is sense of entitlement. Probably often starts in the family where a child always gets what he wants as long as he screams loud and long enough. Those who just want something and get very angry if they are not given that immediately. Entitlement and no delayed gratification during childhood. And then it rolls along from there, they grow up and see lots of good things and beautiful women and want it all, and then get angry when they can't get it. These are people to whom nobody has said no and then suddenly someone does, and then that someone becomes an enemy.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:55

@EmmaH2022 I agree of course but the awful red pills stuff is so ubiquitous that it uses the self improvement stuff or fairly dubious ideas about how to be successful with women to draw men in and then they follow it up with hate speech they like to call red pill truth about women. I really am not trying to excuse it. I want platforms like youtube and TikTok to delete these channels.

OP posts:
Naunet · 15/06/2022 15:57

entropynow · 15/06/2022 15:53

@Naunet
Works for Trumpists, Brexiteers and Corbynists too.

Absolutely! Othering is a known tool that armies around the world have been known to use. Train your soldiers to believe the other side are less than human, evil, unfeeling etc, makes it easier to kill them.

Sunnytwobridges · 15/06/2022 16:06

OneTC · 15/06/2022 14:23

Why is it on the rise though?

I don't think it's on the rise as such, being a loser used to be a fairly solitary activity, now it's more connected and social and consequently more valid seeming

I agree. I feel like it's always been this bad but since everyone is so connected now, and there's central places for people to communicate about it, it makes it more open to more people to know about it. And I think more men are more vocal now.

It's similar to when President Obama and Trump were running for president, everyone thought the US wasn't as racist anymore but if anything it showed how many things haven't changed and the US and some other countries are still very racist, it was just very undercover. Obama being black brought out the racists as well as those that support Trump.

TheWayoftheLeaf · 15/06/2022 16:07

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:42

"I think its valid to want to question the unquestioned spread of this sort of content and to ask why men and boys are so vulnerable to it."

I'm going to anwer myself here and say that perhaps something in the red pill message about what it means to be a successful man, even a good man is resonating with young men who perhaps can't find that elsewhere and that draws them in although they are perhaps unaware its it shot through with toxicity that for the most part only poisons themselves.

We can all be attracted to things that feed the baser aspects of ourselves (gossip for example) so I think its possible to see how attractive some men might find this sort of content.

Men enjoyed the old status quo very much. To be successful just by holding down a job, buying a house and car, having a wife and kids was all it took.

You didn't also have to be kind, understanding, empathetic, help with the kids, do chores, be smart and compete with women for the same jobs etc.

There are also fewer opportunities for good work for none academic men.

So they don't get the trappings of a 'normal' successful man life that they were lead to believe was their 'right' as a regular upstanding joe.

And they're blaming women for entering the workforce and refusing to be cloistered at home rather than their own and societies shortcomings and lack of opportunity.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 16:08

@Naunet I completely agree about the availability of extreme and violent pornography, its so easy to access even for young children and there is no way that isn't having an impact on how men view women and how women, especially girls view themselves. I have seen the darkside of reddit and it is full of young women who have learned to objectify and dehumanise themselves through exposure to pornography.

OP posts:
StEthelburgaRose · 15/06/2022 16:15

I think the point they make is that in a random group of 10 men and 10 women, most of the men would date most of the women whereas most of the women would only date 3 or 4 of the men
Unless they considered any of the random women old, or overweight or unattractive. In any case, unless the women were into plural marriage they wouldn't all be able to date the 3 or 4 men.

Naunet · 15/06/2022 16:15

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 16:08

@Naunet I completely agree about the availability of extreme and violent pornography, its so easy to access even for young children and there is no way that isn't having an impact on how men view women and how women, especially girls view themselves. I have seen the darkside of reddit and it is full of young women who have learned to objectify and dehumanise themselves through exposure to pornography.

Oh my god yes!! The impact it’s having on young girls is truly heart breaking. It seems like we had a very small period of time where women were allowed to explore their own sexuality (somewhere between the pill being widely accessible and the introduction of Internet porn), and that’s now vanishing again. I don’t know how these young girls are going to be able to navigate it, it’s genuinely scary to me.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 16:16

@TheWayoftheLeaf I do agree with what you say, it upsets them that women have options now. I have heard them argue that women and men should go back to traditional roles, to accept the differences between men and women etc.

I don't think women are ever going to back into their box and play the sweet little housewife who lives to serve her husband nor should they. I like being a wife, I love my husband but I also need things that are my own, my career and interests as he needs his, I don't really understand why they find this so threatening.

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TheWayoftheLeaf · 15/06/2022 16:19

@SigmaFlags exactly. They never offer to be the gender forced to stay at home do they?

And women getting to work wasn't even about never being housewives. It was about not being TRAPPED as a housewife in a bad or abusive marriage they had no money or rights to leave.

But they don't think about that very much. Or the fact that considering their current views it would be very dangerous for a woman who was financially dependent on them...

Rosehugger · 15/06/2022 16:20

The problem for these type of men is they still want women sexually. Whereas women can do very well without men. And that's what really bugs them.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 16:20

@Naunet It is scary, I thought we were supposed to be blocking access to porn without an age verified pass? Instead we have male politicians watching pornography in the House of Commons.

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WDTABNONONO · 15/06/2022 16:21

It certainly is concerning.
Especially given a fair few mass shooters/killers have been found to be engaging in these types of communities.

Rosehugger · 15/06/2022 16:24

Men have always been a problen. None of this is new.

MattoMatto · 15/06/2022 16:27

They say women's standards are too high and that they should lower them to find a man ignoring the fact that many women would often choose to stay single rather than be with a man she doesn't want to be with, surely that kind of freedom is a basic human right for both sexes?

Well, they have an answer to that too. One prominent member of these communities (can’t remember who, was years ago) had the view that women need to shack up with a man so as to avoid being raped by other men. So you have to have one, or else.

Honestly, reading this stuff as a woman was terrible for my MH. It took me to a very dark place. Which is unsurprising as it’s hatred pure and simple. I got a handle on what this movement is and now I don’t need to read any more. I’ll never visit any of these blogs, forums, etc., again.

FilterWash · 15/06/2022 16:28

entropynow · 15/06/2022 15:53

@Naunet
Works for Trumpists, Brexiteers and Corbynists too.

Absolutely.

And it's no coincidence that all of those movements are led by revolting white male 'hero' figures who stoke and feed hate.