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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Be concerned about the spread of red pill ideology?

187 replies

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 12:44

A younger male relative that I am close to has recently fallen under the influance of certain online male commentators or activists who preach red pill ideology, which appears to be extrapolated from evolutionary psychology and reduces relationships between the sexes to something purely transactional and women to little more than sex objects whose only value is their repoductive use, beauty and youth. I did do some investigating reading some forums, watching youtube videos of men who are mgtow (going their own way), pick up artists and men who just seem to live for hating women. I've heard statements that women are not really people the way that men are, that women are not capable of rational thought and operate purely on instinct to gain the most resources for themselves and their children and so on.

There is a channel on youtube which can't go a minute without refering to women as 304's which is code for "Hoe" and they openly use that language about women in the videos and the misogyny was awful. I reported these videos to youtube and to ebay who had their adverts running before them but have heard nothing back. According to many of these channels women are worthless beyond the age of 25, 35, 40. There are attitudes that women should not be allowed to work, to vote to hold political office and that all the evils of the world are due to the stupidity and inate badness of women (where have a heard this before I wonder?).

Some of it does appear to be the result of trauma in men who may have been badly treated by a specific women or had their heartbroken which leads them to say they are done with women and relationships. Thats totally fine, I see it on here are well that there are women, perhaps lots of women who decide to opt out of relationships after suffering abuse or broken trust or even just deciding coupled life isn't for them, and obviously men have that right as well (I believe women only communities and even political lesbianisim has been a thing in radfem circles since the 70s). What I don't see is women making 1000's of youtube videos that obsess about women, that stir up misogyny, encourage extremist views, that feed certain mens hatred and fear of women. Also while these men claim to want to have nothing to do with women they are still for the most part obsessed with gaining access to sex with women especially very young women, admittedly I can't imagine they are having much success here but the whole attitude is malign and predetory and there appears to be real rage towards women they perceive as rejecting them or not having sex with them. They say women's standards are too high and that they should lower them to find a man ignoring the fact that many women would often choose to stay single rather than be with a man she doesn't want to be with, surely that kind of freedom is a basic human right for both sexes?

I do think that men are in a difficult phase at the moment, that some of them are struggling to adapt to women's continuing emancipation, that there are areas where men and boys are being failed in education for example. I don't think its a bad thing that men what to be able to talk about their issues and how to be a good man, have a good life, the freedom to choose different paths in life that might not involve being a husband or father that is fine, I don't believe it needs to be a zero sum game. The problem is that in the online space it seems impossible to have that without it degenerating outright hatred of women, dehumanising of women and threats against women.

Its tempting to ignore this as it feels like its something that just happens in dark corners of the internet but when you actually look its massive and probably popping up on the social media feeds of your sons, brothers, husbands and friends.

OP posts:
LakieLady · 15/06/2022 14:36

It's a bit of an arms race. We can keep helping women to critically evaluate the shit they come out with and they will find new ways to trick, hurt or kill women.

This. Women daring to enter into what were traditionally male fields of employment, having their own money, buying their own houses etc has made a certain type of man feel threatened and disadvantaged imo. They're trying to reclaim the territory they believe is rightfully theirs and don't give a shit about how much they harm others in the process.

I often wonder if there's a significant overlap of misogyny and racism, too.

EmmaH2022 · 15/06/2022 14:40

I increasingly wonder if the sellers believe it or just find it the easiest way for them to make money. Like many things online!

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 14:44

@inmyslippers I do think that more women are choosing to be single for reasons that are varied and complex. I think as women have the freedom to support themselves they will choose to be single rather than just be with a man for the sake of it. Perhaps online dating does foster more mercenary behaviour in both men and women, where men sometimes use the apps as a sort of sexual ubereats or at least attempt to and women attempt to date the most desireable men. I don't find this mirrored in real life where attraction is much more nuanced and not so easily reduced to a shopping list of requirements.

I'm not sure about the concept of "Hypergamy" while on paper it sounds plausible its another one that I don't see playing out around me in real life. Since I've been with my husband I've been asked out / pursued by wealthier, more successful / higher status men than him and if Hypergamy were so natural to women then surely I would have jumped ship for the bigger fish? I didn't and it never crossed my mind to do so because I love my Husband, hes the one I share my life with. I see that reflected across the relationships I see in the real world. But red pill men really love this concept, they claim that a woman cannot actually love any man and instead only value men for their wealth and the security and status they afford them. I assume this theory may mitigate some of the pain some of these men feel from being rejected and unloved.

@Naunet "They're pathetic, entitled, weak little men that need breeding out anyway."

While I totally see the temptation to dismiss these men in that way I don't think its ultimately helpful, I think these men are most likely confused and in pain, it doesn't excuse their behaviour of course but I think that some compassion is valuable.

OP posts:
OneTC · 15/06/2022 14:45

No they are weirdly entitled fucking losers who've failed at one of the basic facets of life

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 14:53

@EmmaH2022 I really agree with you that money is a significant factor. There is one red pill guru Donovan Sharpe who makes money from these bitter, unhappy men online advocating you stay single and "spin plates" which is lingo for having multiple hot young women you sleep with on the go at any one time. He makes hateful videos about older women and single mothers while he himself is fairly recently married to an older women who was herself a single mother. Does he or his wife actually believe anything they say online or do they just spot an easy target, a soft touch? There message seems to be don't "simp" for women simp for me instead. I guess the men who send them money are to blinded by their issues to see the reality of what is going on.

OP posts:
puddingandsun · 15/06/2022 14:55

"While I totally see the temptation to dismiss these men in that way I don't think its ultimately helpful, I think these men are most likely confused and in pain, it doesn't excuse their behaviour of course but I think that some compassion is valuable."

Absolutely. I mean these are children of women. Yes, some neglected by parents, etc. but almost always cared for and brought up by women.

The problem needs to be discussed much more and we need to start dealing with it from childhood.

Huge chunk of problems in society can be solved by bringing up children better - that's where we need to put more efforts + resources.
Massive thing to do, obvs.

Naunet · 15/06/2022 14:59

@Naunet "They're pathetic, entitled, weak little men that need breeding out anyway."

While I totally see the temptation to dismiss these men in that way I don't think its ultimately helpful, I think these men are most likely confused and in pain, it doesn't excuse their behaviour of course but I think that some compassion is valuable.

Nope, sorry. Women have been conditioned for so long to help and support men to their own detriment. I will not empathise with these vile woman haters, I will not feel sorry for them, not poor any emotional energy into them. It’s the women they hurt that have my support and compassion. Its like asking black people to empathise with white supremacy.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:06

@Naunet I can see why you would feel that way and I do respect it, I've had that feeling myself at times but I suppose i don't really see how it improves anything. I don't think that is pandering, its keeping an open conversation.

OP posts:
Naunet · 15/06/2022 15:07

But we don’t exist to improve things for them 🤷‍♀️

DirtyDuchess · 15/06/2022 15:09

They are also the driving force pushing the TRA/MRA movement. Dangerous bunch!

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:10

@Naunet Of course thats true but I also don't see the point in not having the conversation, we all have to live together and I prefer cooperation over polarisation.

OP posts:
Naunet · 15/06/2022 15:12

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:10

@Naunet Of course thats true but I also don't see the point in not having the conversation, we all have to live together and I prefer cooperation over polarisation.

I do understand where you’re coming from, but I just think it’s a waste of energy, you’ll never change their minds, and it takes a lot of investment to try. They don’t give a damn about you, in fact some of them will actively want to hurt you. I feel women's energy is better spent on encouraging other women to have high standards and never give a man like that the time of day.

OneTC · 15/06/2022 15:15

Nope, sorry. Women have been conditioned for so long to help and support men to their own detriment. I will not empathise with these vile woman haters, I will not feel sorry for them, not poor any emotional energy into them. It’s the women they hurt that have my support and compassion. Its like asking black people to empathise with white supremacy.

👍

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:19

@DirtyDuchess I did wonder to what extent there was an overlap between these groups. I find it incredible the way they exclaim women have no empathy for them and yet literally say we aren't real people and reduce us to our sexual worth, it does seem to mirror the way other issue groups view women as a collection of dehumanised parts.

OP posts:
DirtyDuchess · 15/06/2022 15:24

It's a well worn tactic isn't it, used against people of colour during the 60s/70s and against jewish people by the Nazis. Dehumanise a group enough and you no longer have to feel empathy for them.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:26

@Naunet I suppose my feelings are coloured by the fact that my younger brother has swallowed some of this Kool aid and I know for a fact he's not irredeemable and from looking online lots of men do come out the other side of it. The sad old messed up red pill guys can stew in their own juices for all I care but its the proselytizing via social media that disturbs me. Its all over youtube and even good lads are vulnerable to this stuff. The hatred and violence is real from some of these content creators see Fit & Fresh on youtube but when I contacted them or the companies like ebay who are being advertised on these channels I was completely ignored.

I think its valid to want to question the unquestioned spread of this sort of content and to ask why men and boys are so vulnerable to it.

OP posts:
Kerrangutan · 15/06/2022 15:28

I feel women's energy is better spent on encouraging other women to have high standards and never give a man like that the time of day.

That's very easy to say but the reality is we live in a world where increasingly you need two incomes to cover the basics. I have two aunties who never married or had kids and I know they're lonely. That is NO WAY suggesting they should have lowered their standards and settled for one of these cretins, but I like OP feel it's spreading and I know so many of my friends are looking around at 30 and wondering where all the Good Men have gone.

I'm not talking about reaching out to incels - fuck them. But we're the same species, and a little understanding might actually help move things back in the right direction for the next generation of men and women.

I fell down this rabbit hole a wee while ago, a Kevin Samuels video on YouTube. Initially I was just fucking livid and rage watched another couple of videos. I believe he's sexist and has a very warped view of 90% of things, but there was some truth there. What I also saw was him 'helping' other men to do better by giving them cold hard home truths. A bit like a stern father they probably never had.

Naunet · 15/06/2022 15:32

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:26

@Naunet I suppose my feelings are coloured by the fact that my younger brother has swallowed some of this Kool aid and I know for a fact he's not irredeemable and from looking online lots of men do come out the other side of it. The sad old messed up red pill guys can stew in their own juices for all I care but its the proselytizing via social media that disturbs me. Its all over youtube and even good lads are vulnerable to this stuff. The hatred and violence is real from some of these content creators see Fit & Fresh on youtube but when I contacted them or the companies like ebay who are being advertised on these channels I was completely ignored.

I think its valid to want to question the unquestioned spread of this sort of content and to ask why men and boys are so vulnerable to it.

Absolutely it’s valid to want to know why, my guess is the amount of violent porn online leads to men dehumanising us, along with feeling sorry for themselves for not getting all the preferential treatment they believe they’re entitled to. But I struggle to believe good men can be seduced by it, I could never be seduced by white supremacy, no matter how many YouTube videos I watched and I think that applies to the majority.

Men need to take responsibility for their own lives instead of looking to blame everyone else. I do understand you wanting to save your brother from it all, I hope you can, genuinely!

Naunet · 15/06/2022 15:34

Kerrangutan · 15/06/2022 15:28

I feel women's energy is better spent on encouraging other women to have high standards and never give a man like that the time of day.

That's very easy to say but the reality is we live in a world where increasingly you need two incomes to cover the basics. I have two aunties who never married or had kids and I know they're lonely. That is NO WAY suggesting they should have lowered their standards and settled for one of these cretins, but I like OP feel it's spreading and I know so many of my friends are looking around at 30 and wondering where all the Good Men have gone.

I'm not talking about reaching out to incels - fuck them. But we're the same species, and a little understanding might actually help move things back in the right direction for the next generation of men and women.

I fell down this rabbit hole a wee while ago, a Kevin Samuels video on YouTube. Initially I was just fucking livid and rage watched another couple of videos. I believe he's sexist and has a very warped view of 90% of things, but there was some truth there. What I also saw was him 'helping' other men to do better by giving them cold hard home truths. A bit like a stern father they probably never had.

Women have ALWAYS tried to understand and help men, we’ve always supported them. I’m not convinced it’s helped much.

UsernameNotAvailableApparently · 15/06/2022 15:34

YANBU op

I live in a small quiet town where I know there are at least 4-5 of these red pill men and they don’t care who knows it.

Agree with PPs who said this ties in with far right ideology as well. They constantly spout abuse at us ‘sheeple’ in community Facebook groups and were eventually thrown out for saying the most disgusting sexual abusive threats and racist remarks to a lovely local woman (honestly, they were horrific with their comments).

The police did go over to talk to one of them about that and he filmed them for his little red pill buddies on YouTube all goading him on.

I genuinely find it terrifying that there’s so many of them out in the open in such a small town, that it makes me wonder how many more there are.

DontBlameMe79 · 15/06/2022 15:38

Just leave them to it I reckon. Most of them have nothing to offer women anyway so what’s the loss? They can stay in their basements.

On whether it’s on the rise, I’m not sure it is. Maybe just better reported now so it seems to be increasing even though it’s no more common. Like extreme weather.

Mayorquimby2 · 15/06/2022 15:40

"While I totally see the temptation to dismiss these men in that way I don't think its ultimately helpful, I think these men are most likely confused and in pain, it doesn't excuse their behaviour of course but I think that some compassion is valuable."

To a certain degree I can see you're point. I'd see them as analogous to the people roped in by Trump, Q anon, GB news, Alex Jones and Any other culture war bullshit campaigns.

They're being grifted and weaponized for the benefit and profit of people who couldn't give a shit about them and will abandon them at the first sight of having to face the consequences of they're actions.

But just as with the groups above, they are choosing to prop up ideologies and groups which target and villify others, to create division and they're doing so because they want to blame groups they perceive as inferior for their own short comings. So while they may be vulnerable people who have been targeted, or they may be damaged due to past trauma and that had made them susceptible to these groups, that is true of countless people and the majority (or at least I'd like to hope it is the vast majority) don't choose hatred, racism and misogyny as their crutch. So fuck then.

EmmaH2022 · 15/06/2022 15:42

OP I thought there might be a personal note here. Must be awful having a brother do this.

I tend to ignore it but recently met someone at a group social who made a comment which he thought was a joke about red pill stuff, I thought was serious, and it ended up with him being (scarily) angry IMHO, saying it was obviously a joke.

But that's such an easy get out for so many things. Many a true word etc.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 15:42

"I think its valid to want to question the unquestioned spread of this sort of content and to ask why men and boys are so vulnerable to it."

I'm going to anwer myself here and say that perhaps something in the red pill message about what it means to be a successful man, even a good man is resonating with young men who perhaps can't find that elsewhere and that draws them in although they are perhaps unaware its it shot through with toxicity that for the most part only poisons themselves.

We can all be attracted to things that feed the baser aspects of ourselves (gossip for example) so I think its possible to see how attractive some men might find this sort of content.

OP posts:
EmmaH2022 · 15/06/2022 15:44

Username "I genuinely find it terrifying that there’s so many of them out in the open in such a small town, that it makes me wonder how many more there are."

how does that work in a small town? Do they have any friends apart from each other?

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