Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Be concerned about the spread of red pill ideology?

187 replies

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 12:44

A younger male relative that I am close to has recently fallen under the influance of certain online male commentators or activists who preach red pill ideology, which appears to be extrapolated from evolutionary psychology and reduces relationships between the sexes to something purely transactional and women to little more than sex objects whose only value is their repoductive use, beauty and youth. I did do some investigating reading some forums, watching youtube videos of men who are mgtow (going their own way), pick up artists and men who just seem to live for hating women. I've heard statements that women are not really people the way that men are, that women are not capable of rational thought and operate purely on instinct to gain the most resources for themselves and their children and so on.

There is a channel on youtube which can't go a minute without refering to women as 304's which is code for "Hoe" and they openly use that language about women in the videos and the misogyny was awful. I reported these videos to youtube and to ebay who had their adverts running before them but have heard nothing back. According to many of these channels women are worthless beyond the age of 25, 35, 40. There are attitudes that women should not be allowed to work, to vote to hold political office and that all the evils of the world are due to the stupidity and inate badness of women (where have a heard this before I wonder?).

Some of it does appear to be the result of trauma in men who may have been badly treated by a specific women or had their heartbroken which leads them to say they are done with women and relationships. Thats totally fine, I see it on here are well that there are women, perhaps lots of women who decide to opt out of relationships after suffering abuse or broken trust or even just deciding coupled life isn't for them, and obviously men have that right as well (I believe women only communities and even political lesbianisim has been a thing in radfem circles since the 70s). What I don't see is women making 1000's of youtube videos that obsess about women, that stir up misogyny, encourage extremist views, that feed certain mens hatred and fear of women. Also while these men claim to want to have nothing to do with women they are still for the most part obsessed with gaining access to sex with women especially very young women, admittedly I can't imagine they are having much success here but the whole attitude is malign and predetory and there appears to be real rage towards women they perceive as rejecting them or not having sex with them. They say women's standards are too high and that they should lower them to find a man ignoring the fact that many women would often choose to stay single rather than be with a man she doesn't want to be with, surely that kind of freedom is a basic human right for both sexes?

I do think that men are in a difficult phase at the moment, that some of them are struggling to adapt to women's continuing emancipation, that there are areas where men and boys are being failed in education for example. I don't think its a bad thing that men what to be able to talk about their issues and how to be a good man, have a good life, the freedom to choose different paths in life that might not involve being a husband or father that is fine, I don't believe it needs to be a zero sum game. The problem is that in the online space it seems impossible to have that without it degenerating outright hatred of women, dehumanising of women and threats against women.

Its tempting to ignore this as it feels like its something that just happens in dark corners of the internet but when you actually look its massive and probably popping up on the social media feeds of your sons, brothers, husbands and friends.

OP posts:
SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 16:29

@TheWayoftheLeaf "They never offer to be the gender forced to stay at home do they?"

I see a lot of complaints from them about the way men are "divorce raped" and having ex-wives access even their pension savings. I don't think they can complain until they do equal childcare, mental load, housework and so on as well as their jobs. They also critique the gender pay gap on the basis that women choose flexible or part time work or stop working (in a time frame that typically coincides with childrearing) and then frame that as a something women just do for no reason and that women have no reason to complain about a gender pay gap because they women don't work as much as men. For a group who supposedly value women as mothers so greatly they really do struggle to see the full picture.

OP posts:
FilterWash · 15/06/2022 16:30

Rosehugger · 15/06/2022 16:24

Men have always been a problen. None of this is new.

It is though. Social media is new. Indoctrination without ever needing to leave your bedroom is new. School shootings and other mass shootings in the USA are up thousands of percent.

Artichokeleaves · 15/06/2022 16:30

It's the slow tipping point of realising the time has been called on male entitlement. It's interesting to me to look at how many women from my school year group have either briefly been married and then were single parents of now adult kids they raised alone (mostly with fathers who were very happy to leave their ex to do all the parenting work), or just stayed single and had a career. They're probably one of the first generations of women who didn't have to marry and put up with all the crap because a woman couldn't manage to live alone.

We're now in a time where if a male doesn't bother or doesn't want to put the effort into a relationship they won't have one. I'm not really sure that's ever been different tbh, I think some of this looking back at 'once men had it good' is an urban myth to an extent, but the incel rhetoric includes 'I shouldn't have to wash/have a conversation/do anything to deserve or participate in a relationships and still have a partner and sex'. It's part of the very modern, lazy culture of 'I deserve it' (and should never have to do anything I don't want to and don't feel like.)

No. If you don't get off your bum and put the work in, you can't expect to have anything in return. Or that someone will fancy you and wish to get to know you sufficiently to have a relationship with you. Calling it a belief system or a gender or anything else is not also going to convince many women with healthy relationship skills that they want to get involved. Hence why the incel rhetoric moves on to the idea of compulsory sex and women being assigned. And some of that is tied up with the ideas and beliefs that mean domestic abuse is rampant in this country, and the explosion of online porn.

Less understanding, strong boundaries and accepting that whining about entitlement isn't a replacement for putting the effort in is probably where things are going to have to go in the next decade. And I don't agree it's an alpha male/beta male thing and poor little beta males - there are many, many average, not so attractive or perfect husbands, partners and fathers out there in very happy relationships because they are lovely people who someone found joy in living with. There's equally stunning men who are alone or can't keep a relationship because they're unpleasant dicks. It's about the effort and relationship skills - which can be learned and involve trying - not about being born with perfect hair.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 16:32

@MattoMatto I do agree that it is toxic stuff and pure negativity, not good for anyone male or female.

OP posts:
DeaconBoo · 15/06/2022 16:35

They also critique the gender pay gap on the basis that women choose flexible or part time work or stop working (in a time frame that typically coincides with childrearing) and then frame that as a something women just do for no reason and that women have no reason to complain about a gender pay gap because they women don't work as much as men.

For a group who supposedly value women as mothers so greatly they really do struggle to see the full picture.

This can't be repeated enough! Which sex is assumed to undertake all caring responsibilities?!

minipie · 15/06/2022 16:36

Just leave them to it I reckon. Most of them have nothing to offer women anyway so what’s the loss? They can stay in their basements.

Unfortunately they don’t stay in their basements, some of them come out and murder women or get a gun and go on a shooting spree.

And they post hatred online, which will influence other boys and men at times they might be a bit vulnerable (eg the teenage years, post break up, unemployment).

These men never seem to reckon the solution is to work on themselves. It’s always someone else’s fault, they are the victim. Same as all far right really.

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 15/06/2022 16:36

I agree, OP, it's frightening. The worst, to me, is the way it seeps out into mainstream everyday life. I've seen expressions like 'front hole' for vagina in print -- 20 years ago even the filthiest bunch of schoolboys probably wouldn't have said that in public. We now see the NHS referring to 'people with cervixes' rather than admit half the human race are women.

The whole gender identity movement seems to be an offshoot of this, relentlessly pushing towards the erasure of women.

Rosehugger · 15/06/2022 16:37

School shootings and other mass shootings in the USA are up thousands of percent

That's rather particular to the US. Ridiculous country.

UWhatNow · 15/06/2022 16:37

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Thereisnolight · 15/06/2022 16:39

StEthelburgaRose · 15/06/2022 16:15

I think the point they make is that in a random group of 10 men and 10 women, most of the men would date most of the women whereas most of the women would only date 3 or 4 of the men
Unless they considered any of the random women old, or overweight or unattractive. In any case, unless the women were into plural marriage they wouldn't all be able to date the 3 or 4 men.

It explains why so many men cheat or have multiple marriages (they’re the men who have their choice - and they’re not always particularly nice people).

It also explains why so many women are prepared to stay single or be the OW.

Meanwhile the incels - who are sometimes violent and dangerous assholes but more often are just quiet and sad - get called “weak little men” and “losers” by people like some pps on this thread.

Those same pps who will get outraged if any man dares to make any negative comment about women - these comments, no matter what they are, will always be referred to as “misogynistic”.

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 15/06/2022 16:45

UsernameNotAvailableApparently · 15/06/2022 15:34

YANBU op

I live in a small quiet town where I know there are at least 4-5 of these red pill men and they don’t care who knows it.

Agree with PPs who said this ties in with far right ideology as well. They constantly spout abuse at us ‘sheeple’ in community Facebook groups and were eventually thrown out for saying the most disgusting sexual abusive threats and racist remarks to a lovely local woman (honestly, they were horrific with their comments).

The police did go over to talk to one of them about that and he filmed them for his little red pill buddies on YouTube all goading him on.

I genuinely find it terrifying that there’s so many of them out in the open in such a small town, that it makes me wonder how many more there are.

That's horrific, Username.Was this in the UK? USA? elsewhere?

FilterWash · 15/06/2022 16:46

Rosehugger · 15/06/2022 16:37

School shootings and other mass shootings in the USA are up thousands of percent

That's rather particular to the US. Ridiculous country.

And it's the country which is driving the ideology that is being discussed in this thread. It may well be ridiculous but that doesn't make it irrelevant.

Kerrangutan · 15/06/2022 16:47

I'm going to anwer myself here and say that perhaps something in the red pill message about what it means to be a successful man, even a good man is resonating with young men who perhaps can't find that elsewhere and that draws them in although they are perhaps unaware its it shot through with toxicity that for the most part only poisons themselves.

I agree with this.

I also think so many of the 'social problems' (for want of a better term) is just the sheer amount of progress that's being made in what is a relatively short period of time in human history.

While some of it will be a case of it just going unnoticed, I think it would be naive to say there isn't some sort of widespread social "crisis" happening. I'm only 30 and already know so many young men who've taken their lives.

Depression. Suicides. Rife amounts of drug-taking - especially cocaine. Violent porn. The red pill. School shootings. Gangs and stabbings. Radicalised via religion. Trans ideology. Political extremism.

If I had to take a guess I'd say a lot of people are struggling to find their place or purpose in this modern age and these things, on the surface, appear to offer that. A community of sorts, wether it's joining the orange lodge or a gang or a church or an adhd community on tiktok or a red pill discord server, it seems to be plugging a gap that's not being filled by an actual community.

My grandad, in his 70s now, was one of five brothers and I guess going from school to the coal pits, then marrying in your early twenties and working to provide for a family in the same place you grew up probably gave you a good sense of purpose, support and identity.

We are 'luckier' now of course, we get to work from home from screens and can chat to people all over the world, and we get to travel and have fun and build careers in our twenties, and we get to be whatever we want to be - including the opposite sex - but what do we do about all the people who can't afford to live in their communities, who can't afford to have ivf in their 30s, who don't have miners clubs filled with old men to act as the fathers they never had, who would never go to university or gap years in Thailand etc?

You can tell I've thought a lot about this because I "lost" my brother to this in his late teens. We never had a dad. He was never going to uni. He'd have been one of those men who went to the mine everyday and doted on his children but that's just not an option these days - and when it is tends to be frowned upon. He got into drink and drugs and struggled with suicide and the only thing that turned him around was lightning striking a couple years later when he was offered a job in a place not unlike the mines and met a girl who wanted to be a housewife and inherited a home in the place he grew up. Happy to say he is 'A Good Man' now but I can easily see how I'd have lost him to the first "thing" that came along promising him a solution to his problems. And lightning doesn't strike for a lot of people, they just go through the motions but become even more disenfranchised in their online communities or behind closed doors.

You can tell I've thought a lot about this over the years but I don't claim to have any answers. I think most people are happy in 2022 with zero desire to go back to the 1950s (including myself).

Mumoblue · 15/06/2022 16:53

Personally I think it has a lot to do with men not knowing how to interact with other people. They resent women, and objectify them at the same time- and they often can’t relate to other men outside of their shared spaces to bitch about the fact that women don’t want to touch them.

Lots of men have few or no friends and end up placing all their eggs in one basket- aka putting things on their partner or potential partner for all their emotional fulfilment. No wonder most women dont want that job.

And it may sound harsh but I do not feel the least bit sorry for redpillers. I know loads of women who have had truly awful experiences with men but they don’t start YouTube channels about how much they both want and hate them. These men are making choices, and it’s in womens best interest to keep avoiding them.

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 16:59

@DeaconBoo Sorry I'm not suggesting that women should take on all the childrearing (along with everything else), only pointing out the massive holes in their argument against the existance of the gender pay gap.

They just seem to have a mental block when it comes to seeing women as full human beings with complex needs and desires. If childrearing and the family work load was evenly divided women would be able hopefully to have their own pension savings. Its a deep cultural issue though as even many employers baulk at male employees being as available for childcare as women are although I hope that is changing. The red pillers also say that women then end up finding men who do share the domestic work load unattractive which in my experiance couldn't be further from the truth, perhaps that just suits them to believe because they don't want to do that sort of work, shitwork its sometimes called.

I had a male flatmate at university once who when I confronted him about never doing his share of the cleaning in the flat appeared to be genuinely bafffled and claimed he just left it for me to do because I "enjoyed" doing it, yeah I totally loved wiping up his pee drips and pubes off the bathroom floor😡

OP posts:
Naunet · 15/06/2022 17:02

FilterWash · 15/06/2022 16:30

It is though. Social media is new. Indoctrination without ever needing to leave your bedroom is new. School shootings and other mass shootings in the USA are up thousands of percent.

Is it new though? I mean we were literally property for many, many years because of men like this.

tootiredtobother · 15/06/2022 17:04

I read the book and was shocked.. So much of society today made sense the way Laura recounts it
The hatred is on the rise due to algorithms which with every click from these sad little losers puts then in touch with yet more material in the same vein. self perpetuating.. Big Teck had to be held accountable , we have no power in this, but I hold out little hope.. they wont even police the internet for child porn

Emotionalsupportviper · 15/06/2022 17:05

I've never heard of "red pill" before - but this mindset explains much

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 17:06

@Kerrangutan Thank you for your post and I agree with you, i think all this does take on a different complexion when someone you love and know to be a basically good person gets taken in my it. You do get a bit more interested in the why, I think the speed of change most of it positive but not all probably is a big part of it.

OP posts:
CaveMum · 15/06/2022 17:12

I read something interesting a while back that stated that with every push forward in feminism/women’s rights there is a corresponding backlash from men’s rights activists and I think right now that is what we are seeing with regards to the current rise in Incels/MRAs.

We’ve recently had the push forward from the Me Too movement, the steps forward in terms of making coercive control a crime, more awareness around domestic violence, etc. Sadly that upsets a certain type of man.

alwaysontheloo · 15/06/2022 17:15

Jesus who exactly are the 11% who think YABU? Hmm
Red pill-ers I'm guessing. I feel for the women young and older who live or are in relationships with these types. I know a guy who thinks in this toxic way.
He dated a friend of my brother and when she ended it with him (nicely I might add) he threw £20 notes at her and called her a whore Angry
She had a lucky escape that's for sure. He's still single and bitter.

MontanaMountains · 15/06/2022 17:27

Women have ALWAYS tried to understand and help men, we’ve always supported them. I’m not convinced it’s helped much you're not wrong. Just look at the ridiculous gender movement - women expected to capitulate, budge up, relinquish our hard won rights etc. And anyone who thinks that this push against women is a right wing males phenomenon is very naïve. Left wing men are equally as misogynistic (if not a lot more so when it comes to gender ideology and removing sex based rights).

FilterWash · 15/06/2022 17:28

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 17:06

@Kerrangutan Thank you for your post and I agree with you, i think all this does take on a different complexion when someone you love and know to be a basically good person gets taken in my it. You do get a bit more interested in the why, I think the speed of change most of it positive but not all probably is a big part of it.

I think a more interesting, but obviously tougher, question is: why do people still insist that someone is 'basically a good person' when they have bought into truly hateful ideologies, such as extreme misogyny, anti-semitism, white supremacy etc.?

FilterWash · 15/06/2022 17:29

Naunet · 15/06/2022 17:02

Is it new though? I mean we were literally property for many, many years because of men like this.

Well, I can see it either way. Obviously it's pretty much the oldest hatred (being both female and Jewish, I get to be on the receiving end of two of them Grin )

The format is different. But yeah - men hating and resenting women and wanting to fuck us and also to kill us and control us is not new.

Kerrangutan · 15/06/2022 17:31

Is it new though? I mean we were literally property for many, many years because of men like this.

While that was the law and I'm sure affected a lot of women over the last 500 years, wasn't it only really the wealthy ones who (for example) couldn't inherit or would become 'the property' of their brother's until they married etc?

I mean the vast, vast majority of people were basically serfs who worked the fields all day (or cotton mills etc) and lived in cottages owned by their employers, with half a day off on Sunday to attend church. While Mary the 1832 crofter might have been the property of her father or husband, we shouldn't pretend like it would have been any different for the vast majority of them if they weren't.

Not an expert on history, this is just from high school. And maybe a little bit of Starz's Harlots haha 😆. No but in all seriousness, I doubt the average man (or woman) back then gave it much thought. They'd have been preoccupied with the shite harvest and their youngest having tuberculosis and the fact they're down to their last molar.

All of these ideological problems seem to be a very modern phenomenon imo, probably because we all have so much time to sit around and consume them.

Swipe left for the next trending thread