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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Be concerned about the spread of red pill ideology?

187 replies

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 12:44

A younger male relative that I am close to has recently fallen under the influance of certain online male commentators or activists who preach red pill ideology, which appears to be extrapolated from evolutionary psychology and reduces relationships between the sexes to something purely transactional and women to little more than sex objects whose only value is their repoductive use, beauty and youth. I did do some investigating reading some forums, watching youtube videos of men who are mgtow (going their own way), pick up artists and men who just seem to live for hating women. I've heard statements that women are not really people the way that men are, that women are not capable of rational thought and operate purely on instinct to gain the most resources for themselves and their children and so on.

There is a channel on youtube which can't go a minute without refering to women as 304's which is code for "Hoe" and they openly use that language about women in the videos and the misogyny was awful. I reported these videos to youtube and to ebay who had their adverts running before them but have heard nothing back. According to many of these channels women are worthless beyond the age of 25, 35, 40. There are attitudes that women should not be allowed to work, to vote to hold political office and that all the evils of the world are due to the stupidity and inate badness of women (where have a heard this before I wonder?).

Some of it does appear to be the result of trauma in men who may have been badly treated by a specific women or had their heartbroken which leads them to say they are done with women and relationships. Thats totally fine, I see it on here are well that there are women, perhaps lots of women who decide to opt out of relationships after suffering abuse or broken trust or even just deciding coupled life isn't for them, and obviously men have that right as well (I believe women only communities and even political lesbianisim has been a thing in radfem circles since the 70s). What I don't see is women making 1000's of youtube videos that obsess about women, that stir up misogyny, encourage extremist views, that feed certain mens hatred and fear of women. Also while these men claim to want to have nothing to do with women they are still for the most part obsessed with gaining access to sex with women especially very young women, admittedly I can't imagine they are having much success here but the whole attitude is malign and predetory and there appears to be real rage towards women they perceive as rejecting them or not having sex with them. They say women's standards are too high and that they should lower them to find a man ignoring the fact that many women would often choose to stay single rather than be with a man she doesn't want to be with, surely that kind of freedom is a basic human right for both sexes?

I do think that men are in a difficult phase at the moment, that some of them are struggling to adapt to women's continuing emancipation, that there are areas where men and boys are being failed in education for example. I don't think its a bad thing that men what to be able to talk about their issues and how to be a good man, have a good life, the freedom to choose different paths in life that might not involve being a husband or father that is fine, I don't believe it needs to be a zero sum game. The problem is that in the online space it seems impossible to have that without it degenerating outright hatred of women, dehumanising of women and threats against women.

Its tempting to ignore this as it feels like its something that just happens in dark corners of the internet but when you actually look its massive and probably popping up on the social media feeds of your sons, brothers, husbands and friends.

OP posts:
Summerwhereareyou · 18/06/2022 00:12

I'm just watching the fld on Netflix.

It's so hard to see the world in the same way when one sees these structures set up with god's to control women, abuse children, marry off and abuse girls, and do sex slavery where giving women and marrying women off was the currency.

Summerwhereareyou · 18/06/2022 00:14

Women have no power at all obviously,they have to wear their hair in a certain way and wear specific clothes.
They have to follow the project because they have been brainwashed since birth that otherwise hell and damnations will come for them.

pixie5121 · 18/06/2022 00:15

Oaktreelife · 17/06/2022 10:51

I went to a wedding a few years ago and found myself the "target" of a man whose company runs courses for men on "how to pick up women". At the wedding breakfast this man was sat at my table and told us all about his work. He was a bit tipsy and was blisteringly honest about his work, saying that the goal of the men was to get more sex / more one night stands and he teaches them how to do this. He reckoned he was so successful because he knew the secret to getting a woman to have sex with you - getting her to talk about her passions and tapping onto that passion before making your move.

I was of course disgusted but as he was a friend of my friend (the bride's) new husband, and it was her wedding day, I kept very quiet.

Much later at the wedding party the same man came and chatted me up at the bar, seemingly oblivious that I had been sat at his table and heard his tactics. Consequently he asked me what I did, and was I was passionate about. He obviously thought he was so clever. I kept a very neutral and monotone voice and said I was passionate about feminism. I could see in his eyes he was slightly taken aback but he tried to run with this, asking me to tell him more about how I feel when I get passionate. I just refused to take the bait and remained utterly dispassionate and monotone whilst quoting bell hooks. He gave up (!) but the next day he had found me on Facebook and tried to add me!

Honestly if it hadn't been my friends special day I don't know what I'd have said to him but it wouldn't have been polite. AngryIt was chilling to hear this insight into the way such men think, and the fact he was making a living from it too - just horrible.

It's really telling that he didn't recognise you when you were literally sat at the same table. Just shows what he thinks of women...you're just an interchangeable object with a female form. Your response to him was really funny. What a muppet!

Aerodactyl · 18/06/2022 00:34

There was a second part to that post that mumsnet lost FOUR TIMES so I can't be fucked to rewrite. Basically I'm a really masculine woman yet he had/has a thing for me and it fucks with his head. I challenge his ideas head on, and my very existence challenges his ideology. He's told me how confusing he finds me. It's like witnessing a RL fight between the devil and angel upon his shoulder. Yes he thinks men should be MEN and women should be feminine. He acknowledges yet totally glosses over the fact he's a fairly short, slight man who works in a typically feminine profession. It all basically stems from the fact he feels he's following 'the rules' (as per JP) yet STILL can't get a gf, yet has a strange dichotomy of knowing, respecting and admiring women who 'break the rules' (his sisters and mum are all very strong, capable, enterprising people). He loves the idoeolgy as an explanation for his 'failure', but it doesn't square the circle.

Aerodactyl · 18/06/2022 01:02

He thinks 'sub masculine' males need basically to get a grip and 'man up' and stop clutching at excusetory 'soy'/trans ideology. I have heartily piss-taken the fact he's clinging onto a synonymous ideology to justify his own personality/life experiences 🙄

Summerwhereareyou · 18/06/2022 08:48
  • not project the self declared phropet!
DeaconBoo · 18/06/2022 10:42

He loves the idoeolgy as an explanation for his 'failure', but it doesn't square the circle.

I'm always really interested as to where people hit roadblocks in their own beliefs and how far they are willing to go to unpick it/face up to the fact that something illogical underpins their belief system! Thanks for the post. He sounds like a marketer's dream, tbh!

Oaktreelife · 18/06/2022 12:39

Can anyone summarise Jordan Peterson for me please? My DH was thinking about listening to his podcast and I said I thought he was v right wing / dodgy but husband said he wasn't sure if I was correct and thought they were meant to be podcasts about positive life choices?? My husband is NOT remotely incel or anything and I'd like to warn him off if I need to!

Lunar27 · 18/06/2022 13:05

Oaktreelife · 18/06/2022 12:39

Can anyone summarise Jordan Peterson for me please? My DH was thinking about listening to his podcast and I said I thought he was v right wing / dodgy but husband said he wasn't sure if I was correct and thought they were meant to be podcasts about positive life choices?? My husband is NOT remotely incel or anything and I'd like to warn him off if I need to!

Hard to summarise someone who makes some sense but is also flawed in other respects. He claims not to be right wing but clearly attracts right wingers.

Just listen to him as there's no harm, provided you can exercise some critical thinking. I have on YouTube but get bored easily when listening to people who clearly like the sound of their own voices. He allegedly 'wins' many arguments as he's very calm, thoughtful in his approach and doesn't get ruffled. Therefore he comes across like someone rational and to be taken seriously.

He gets on famously with Russel Brand so is enough for me to make my mind up!

Lunar27 · 18/06/2022 13:10

What the hell is sub masculine anyway? My gay friends say I'm borderline gay for various reasons and most people think I'm on the feminine side.

Not that I'm bothered as I just happily do my thing and have no interest in compliance. I wonder why it's so important for men to be the stereotype?

Aerodactyl · 18/06/2022 19:47

An interesting listen to learn a bit more about Jordan Peterson is an episode of a podcast called Maintenance Phase. It's primarily a podcast about ripping apart diet culture, is fairly amusing and well researches, the hosts are a bit 'woke'. They did an episode on JP's obsession with the carnivore diet but deep dive into his life/career in the process. He's pretty much a genuine but shady psychologist with questionable views, but also has plus points in that he doesn't bow to 'wokeness' who seems to have a way about him that draws people in, and I certainly think for a subset of disillusioned lost young men who might easily be led into stuff like incelism could be a saving grace for society (he gives out on sorting your own shit out, not being pathetic basement dwellers basically!). There's elements of his ramblings that cut the crap and are spot on and elements that are distasteful and that I strongly disagree with. If there was a room full of young confused disenfranchised men I would MUCH rather them be poached by JP than QAnon or the incel movement. They'll make their beds at least 😂

Aerodactyl · 18/06/2022 19:57

I'm sure the obsession wirh masculinity stems from insecurity. Men who are secure in themselves don't even think about it, I'm sure. My DP has very 'manly', yet thinks nothing of picking me a bunch of wildflowers or crafting etc. It's because he isn't insecure or doesn't feel like he has to prove himself I think. You sound similaely confident in your own skin Lunar27. Coming from a place of insecurity I think some men feel they have something to prove (maybe movie/cultural influenced?!). And by proxy it makes them uncomfortable to see a man who will happily engage or display 'feminine' traits. They feel threatened by it.

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