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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To Be concerned about the spread of red pill ideology?

187 replies

SigmaFlags · 15/06/2022 12:44

A younger male relative that I am close to has recently fallen under the influance of certain online male commentators or activists who preach red pill ideology, which appears to be extrapolated from evolutionary psychology and reduces relationships between the sexes to something purely transactional and women to little more than sex objects whose only value is their repoductive use, beauty and youth. I did do some investigating reading some forums, watching youtube videos of men who are mgtow (going their own way), pick up artists and men who just seem to live for hating women. I've heard statements that women are not really people the way that men are, that women are not capable of rational thought and operate purely on instinct to gain the most resources for themselves and their children and so on.

There is a channel on youtube which can't go a minute without refering to women as 304's which is code for "Hoe" and they openly use that language about women in the videos and the misogyny was awful. I reported these videos to youtube and to ebay who had their adverts running before them but have heard nothing back. According to many of these channels women are worthless beyond the age of 25, 35, 40. There are attitudes that women should not be allowed to work, to vote to hold political office and that all the evils of the world are due to the stupidity and inate badness of women (where have a heard this before I wonder?).

Some of it does appear to be the result of trauma in men who may have been badly treated by a specific women or had their heartbroken which leads them to say they are done with women and relationships. Thats totally fine, I see it on here are well that there are women, perhaps lots of women who decide to opt out of relationships after suffering abuse or broken trust or even just deciding coupled life isn't for them, and obviously men have that right as well (I believe women only communities and even political lesbianisim has been a thing in radfem circles since the 70s). What I don't see is women making 1000's of youtube videos that obsess about women, that stir up misogyny, encourage extremist views, that feed certain mens hatred and fear of women. Also while these men claim to want to have nothing to do with women they are still for the most part obsessed with gaining access to sex with women especially very young women, admittedly I can't imagine they are having much success here but the whole attitude is malign and predetory and there appears to be real rage towards women they perceive as rejecting them or not having sex with them. They say women's standards are too high and that they should lower them to find a man ignoring the fact that many women would often choose to stay single rather than be with a man she doesn't want to be with, surely that kind of freedom is a basic human right for both sexes?

I do think that men are in a difficult phase at the moment, that some of them are struggling to adapt to women's continuing emancipation, that there are areas where men and boys are being failed in education for example. I don't think its a bad thing that men what to be able to talk about their issues and how to be a good man, have a good life, the freedom to choose different paths in life that might not involve being a husband or father that is fine, I don't believe it needs to be a zero sum game. The problem is that in the online space it seems impossible to have that without it degenerating outright hatred of women, dehumanising of women and threats against women.

Its tempting to ignore this as it feels like its something that just happens in dark corners of the internet but when you actually look its massive and probably popping up on the social media feeds of your sons, brothers, husbands and friends.

OP posts:
Tompariswasmyfavorite · 16/06/2022 12:08

myuterusistryingtokillme · 16/06/2022 08:48

I've noticed this too, plenty of average men seem to think that they 'deserve' a stunning woman with brains and a good job, are quick to reject anyone that doesn't meet the unrealistic bar they have set and then get bitter about being single

They don't seem to realise that the stunning women with brains and a good job will also have a bar and they are very unlikely to get anywhere near it

If they had more realistic expectations then maybe they would have a girlfriend

I used to have a male friend, Rob, he made it quite clear over the years he wanted more and I politely made it clear I wasn't interested.

I then married my DH who also happened to be a close friend of mine. Rob fell out with me and hasn't spoken to me since I got married.

Apparently I had just been messing around with the guys I had dated before, getting the 'girls want bad boys' thing out of my system and when I was ready to settle down with a 'nice man' I should have settled down with him, because we had been friends longer, he had paid his dues being my friend and now he deserved his reward and my DH had essentially 'skipped the queue'.

He was totally oblivious to the fact that our lifestyles were incompatible, our future plans were incompatible, I didn't fancy him etc etc. As far as he was concerned his friendship with me was a down payment and I had cheated him out of the end product.

He is exactly the kind of guy who could end up an incel and did come out with red pill/incel type comments over the years. Because he really believed that him being 'nice' = 'sex' and that therefore women were cheating him out of his rights.

Valeriekat · 16/06/2022 14:51

DianaRossshair · 15/06/2022 13:55

Isn't it all connected to the rise of extreme right wing / proud boys type mentality? Are incels more commonly white men? Is is just another facet of a general white / male / right extremist / gun toting / Trump supporting toxicity in the West?

Also porn I think which makes them believe that women must be young, hot and sexually available to them.

Valeriekat · 16/06/2022 15:00

EmmaH2022 · 15/06/2022 17:48

I nearly said this about the title...I don't consider red pill to = incel.

I can't keep up with the constantly changing definitions but I don't think it's right to link, for example, JP to incels.

Jordon Peterson should not be included. While you may not enjoy all his viewpoints he is actually the opposite of the "red pill" and is trying to address the causes.

NotKevinTurvey · 16/06/2022 16:34

myuterusistryingtokillme · 16/06/2022 08:48

I've noticed this too, plenty of average men seem to think that they 'deserve' a stunning woman with brains and a good job, are quick to reject anyone that doesn't meet the unrealistic bar they have set and then get bitter about being single

They don't seem to realise that the stunning women with brains and a good job will also have a bar and they are very unlikely to get anywhere near it

If they had more realistic expectations then maybe they would have a girlfriend

Isn’t it normal on here though for people to be told that they should not lower their standards, that they “deserve” the best, and that it’s better to be single than to be with someone that doesn’t measure up?

Is this guy not just doing what women on here are told to do all the time, and holding out for what he wants?

DeaconBoo · 16/06/2022 16:37

Isn’t it normal on here though for people to be told that they should not lower their standards, that they “deserve” the best, and that it’s better to be single than to be with someone that doesn’t measure up?

You're being disingenuous. This is usually when the partner is abusive, racist, an addict, sexist, lazy etc. Not that they're not pretty enough.

The odd thread that is started about 'I don't fancy him as much since he put on weight' you get strong opinions from both sides...

TrickyD · 16/06/2022 16:49

Male entitlement is also seen in much of the culture of Islam. But any criticism of that provokes cries of ‘racism’.
Why is it exempt from discussion?

BrightYellowDaffodil · 16/06/2022 17:25

@Tompariswasmyfavorite that's the Nice Guy thing, isn't it? The idea that you earn Brownie points by being a friend, helping someone, being a shoulder to cry on etc and one day you've earned enough points to cash in for your prize. Your friend sees it that someone swanned off with his prize at the last moment.

How on Earth these men think that women are the equivalent of a Legoland day out paid for in Clubcard points, escapes me.

Ballcactus · 16/06/2022 17:33

Laura Bates is brilliant but I have to say it’s also terrifying. She is campaigning to have the “mani sphere” which is this ideology- treated as terrorism. Which when you look at the definition- is what this is.
the insidious nature of how it is infiltrating young males lives is where I worry.

Ponoka7 · 16/06/2022 17:36

"Why is it exempt from discussion?"

It's covered under the religious section of the Equality Act, so unless it can be legally defined as hate speech, it's legally allowed.

I don't know if anyone is following the white supremacists, Christopher Gibbons and Tyrone Patten-Walsh, the two who targeted the Harry and Meghan, but also said of the Manchester Arena bombing "They start screaming and that’s the bit that really pleases me because I hate those people.", They called the victims sluts and said "it's a sign of masculine, even though it was done by a sand n***, masculine terror against women is always a good thing".

MsTSwift · 16/06/2022 17:41

I disagree that their standards are low. They seem to feel entitled to have sexual access to young supermodels and are furious when this doesn’t happen. They are not interested sexually in their female equivalents. That’s part of the problem.

LooseGoose22 · 16/06/2022 17:55

...roosh v

Ah yes, he's the one who argued publicly that rape should be legal on private premises.

That is, that it should not be defined as rape in private premises... because if a woman entered so eager private with a man, she should know what he was expecting, and her entry into private premises with him was her consent to sex.

Not sure if he thknls the same about himself with other men, who may or may nor be gay .... that he mist about about being in private with them, or if they forced anal sex on him, it couldn't abd shouldn't be rape. 🙄

LooseGoose22 · 16/06/2022 18:00

Anyway, yes they are generally calling women hypergsmous and shallow, while they rate them out of 1 on looks, say women fall off a cliff at anything from 21 to 30, are worthless other than their youth, sexual value and fertility, should remain virgjns b4 marriage etc etc

I've also seen the "women getting the vote being able to vote, gaming power etc has causedcthe downfall of society. The fundamental Islamic societies have it right. We need to get back to that."

We never had that, but they don't seem keen on (real). History.

Tompariswasmyfavorite · 16/06/2022 18:04

NotKevinTurvey · 16/06/2022 16:34

Isn’t it normal on here though for people to be told that they should not lower their standards, that they “deserve” the best, and that it’s better to be single than to be with someone that doesn’t measure up?

Is this guy not just doing what women on here are told to do all the time, and holding out for what he wants?

Women are being told to hold out for a man who will treat them with respect, pull their weight around the house and look after the kids

These are men who meet 'smart, lovely but average looking girls' and wont date them because they don't deserve any less than supermodel looks in their heads

I'm pretty sure of a woman came on here claiming she couldn't find a man because the only ones interested were not good looking enough, with no reference to character or personality she would probably get pretty short shrift

LooseGoose22 · 16/06/2022 18:08

They also cite women's hormones abd brains as making them poor decision makers, having poor judgement etc.

Apparently the fact that mens hormones and "brains are implicated in them being more aggressive, risk taking, and vastly more likely to be perpetrators of sex crime, sexual misconduct (would "Wilemina Clinton" have marked her presidency by getting oral sex off a subordinate in the Oval Room - I doubt it). violent crime etc ..... conveniently escapes them.

pixie5121 · 16/06/2022 18:08

Yep. It's fucking everywhere. I had a man go ballistic at me on the train yesterday for the crime of politely saying excuse me so I could get past.

Work is full of entitled fuckers who whinge about 'diversity hires' and ignore the fact that the place is 90% white males. Imagine your gender and race being that overrepresented and still feeling hard done by.

The difference with women who are sick of men is that they don't feel entitled to relationships. If I can't find a man who meets my needs, I'll happily stay single. I don't stalk and harass men I fancy and pester them into dating me. Men don't seem to think this way. They feel entitled to women's time, attention and effort and if they don't get it, they get angry and violent.

Women who go their own way live happy lives, ignoring men and doing whatever they want. Men who go their own way seem to spend 99% of their time talking about women and wanting to harm them.

Floogal · 16/06/2022 18:13

@Tompariswasmyfavorite I'm pretty sure of a woman came on here claiming she couldn't find a man because the only ones interested were not good looking enough, with no reference to character or personality she would probably get pretty short shrift

there actually was a lady the other week who was asking why she can't get a 'decent good looking' guy on OLD who will accept her even though she's overweight. The majority of people who responded to her were actually sympathetic with her and didn't call her our for being shallow and hypocritical.

Tompariswasmyfavorite · 16/06/2022 18:31

Floogal · 16/06/2022 18:13

@Tompariswasmyfavorite I'm pretty sure of a woman came on here claiming she couldn't find a man because the only ones interested were not good looking enough, with no reference to character or personality she would probably get pretty short shrift

there actually was a lady the other week who was asking why she can't get a 'decent good looking' guy on OLD who will accept her even though she's overweight. The majority of people who responded to her were actually sympathetic with her and didn't call her our for being shallow and hypocritical.

The only one I remember like that recently was an overweight lady who was being contacted by decent looking guys but was worried they wouldnt like her in person because of her weight, which isnt quite the same thing.

I must have missed the thread you mean, I would appreciate a link to it if you can remember what it was called? No worries if not

SilverDragonfly1 · 17/06/2022 08:42

Carpy88999 · 16/06/2022 06:50

No they feel they can't sex with anyone and they're worthless due to to the 80/20 rule they believe in.

Most incels start off like this I think and if someone could step in and readjust their beliefs and expectations at that point they would be able to become real adult men leading happy lives. That's why the manosphere ideologies need to be treated in the same way as terrorist ones. When young men are left to sit in red pill forums all day they will quickly encounter the more extreme views and have their nascent misogyny reinforced and encouraged in an echo chamber. Some will never graduate beyond the 'kissless virgin because of my epicanthal fold and my height of 5'6' level of discourse, which is damaging to them but not to anyone else.

With the ones who have been lead deeper into the ideology- the ones who have been groomed and encouraged to worship Elliot Rodger and think violence against women is always justified- that is no longer the case. They could extend their potential dating 'pool' by putting personality above beauty on their internal list of must-haves. They could even pay sex workers- I would never advocate that myself but realistically the option is there if sex is that important to them. But they won't, because they deserve beautiful women, preferably with no previous sexual partners, falling at their feet.

Any man who does accept less than an HB10 (hot body, 10/10 looks) is looked down upon as a traitor to his sex and a pathetic 'cuck'. Hence men who end up at this stage are subject to enormous peer pressure to remain within the group.

myuterusistryingtokillme · 17/06/2022 10:00

*Isn’t it normal on here though for people to be told that they should not lower their standards, that they “deserve” the best, and that it’s better to be single than to be with someone that doesn’t measure up?

Is this guy not just doing what women on here are told to do all the time, and holding out for what he wants?*

Of course, but they all seem to want the Instagram/love island stunner. Not being funny but a) there aren't that many of them in the real world b) they probably aren't going to be interested in the average joe IT guy from a small town in the midlands.

I'd quite like to go out with Jensen Ackles, but even if he was single and I was in a position to meet him, he's most probably not going to be attracted to a podgy middle aged woman!

By all means hold out for someone that measures up, but understand that if you have wildly unrealistic expectations then you are going to remain single. If you are happy with that then great, if it is going to send you into a spiral of bitter twisty raging hatred about all of the opposite sex then perhaps have slightly more realistic expectations (and get some help with your mental health)

Cherryblossoms85 · 17/06/2022 10:16

It is a worry, yes.yes
i think the entire oppositionalism of most of leftwing ideology doesn't help. Always pitting various groups against each other. I am enjoying Douglas Murray's The Madness of Crowds, he writes well (I'll just have to agree to disagree with him on Brexit).

Oaktreelife · 17/06/2022 10:51

I went to a wedding a few years ago and found myself the "target" of a man whose company runs courses for men on "how to pick up women". At the wedding breakfast this man was sat at my table and told us all about his work. He was a bit tipsy and was blisteringly honest about his work, saying that the goal of the men was to get more sex / more one night stands and he teaches them how to do this. He reckoned he was so successful because he knew the secret to getting a woman to have sex with you - getting her to talk about her passions and tapping onto that passion before making your move.

I was of course disgusted but as he was a friend of my friend (the bride's) new husband, and it was her wedding day, I kept very quiet.

Much later at the wedding party the same man came and chatted me up at the bar, seemingly oblivious that I had been sat at his table and heard his tactics. Consequently he asked me what I did, and was I was passionate about. He obviously thought he was so clever. I kept a very neutral and monotone voice and said I was passionate about feminism. I could see in his eyes he was slightly taken aback but he tried to run with this, asking me to tell him more about how I feel when I get passionate. I just refused to take the bait and remained utterly dispassionate and monotone whilst quoting bell hooks. He gave up (!) but the next day he had found me on Facebook and tried to add me!

Honestly if it hadn't been my friends special day I don't know what I'd have said to him but it wouldn't have been polite. AngryIt was chilling to hear this insight into the way such men think, and the fact he was making a living from it too - just horrible.

BrightYellowDaffodil · 17/06/2022 21:36

@Oaktreelife Urgh. I mean, it’s mildly entertaining that he spilled his secrets then tried to use them on you but…Urgh. Good tip on the “droning on about feminism through” to throw them off balance <makes note>

DeaconBoo · 17/06/2022 21:41

Much later at the wedding party the same man came and chatted me up at the bar, seemingly oblivious that I had been sat at his table and heard his tactics. Consequently he asked me what I did, and was I was passionate about. He obviously thought he was so clever. I kept a very neutral and monotone voice and said I was passionate about feminism. I could see in his eyes he was slightly taken aback but he tried to run with this, asking me to tell him more about how I feel when I get passionate. I just refused to take the bait and remained utterly dispassionate and monotone whilst quoting bell hooks. He gave up (!) but the next day he had found me on Facebook and tried to add me!

That's kind of hilarious, and you are awesome.
But it is bloody awful that people do this... however, you have the cheat codes - you should disseminate them to all women!

Aerodactyl · 17/06/2022 23:10

A friend of mine is a redpill type, but comes down more on the Jordan Peterson side of sort your shit out than proper incel. Nevertheless he doesn't half spout some mysoginist bullshit, but also has some spot on observations, eg society should value 'women's work' (the difference between us being I think women's work should be distributed, yet paid and valued where it occurs, whereas I get the impression he thinks women in theory should stay in their lane but but rewarded for it by being catered for financially by their manly 'provider'. And thank them with sex obvs! He hasn't said as much explicitly but it's so easy to read between the lines once he gets going).

We're stage bedfellows on the trans debate, as he's vehemently against the 'softening'/feminising/dilution of the male sex. I come at it from a pro mwoman stance, but there are many points of agreement.

Where the confusion comes in is that I'm as competent as more than most men at a 'manly' sport. He respects this, and also forgets I'm a woman when we get into training chat etc, and has high standards for me when it comes to sporting capability, yet it befuddles him becausei clearly fall into his fuckable category, am a single parent on benefits

DeaconBoo · 17/06/2022 23:23

he's vehemently against the 'softening'/feminising/dilution of the male sex.
That's interesting - so he thinks there can't be any feminine males, and if a male feels feminine he should pretend not to / masculinise (?) himself?

Or would he not be more comfortable with the notion that any "sub-masculine" male is really a woman, so he doesn't have to feel like he has anything in common with them?