Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

Sometimes I feel that being a mother about letting people stand on your head for a leg up without complaining.

Because its not a massive achievement to have sex and give birth, it's nature, working hard at a career is an achievement

The world has more than enough overconsumption, often linked to pointless yet lauded careers.

And the best way to resolve that would be less people.

Less people means a required restructure.

Two things:

1, 'Achievements' in the conventional sense are overrated. You're supposed to have them to prove you're living well, but what counts as such is 90% social convention. So 'achieving' simply means 'meeting expectations' and says very little about you and your life.

2, Bringing up children takes tons of skills. Self- control, observation, experimentation, improvisation, psychological manipulation, negotiation, focus, responsiveness, tact, creativity, patience(!!!), you name it - just because these aren't skills that are formally taught like typing doesn't mean they're trivial.

That career achievements are valued higher than reproductive ones has many social reasons, sexism not the least of them. Speaking as a female professor with three kids, I find it bizarre that me doing reams of paperwork in the office technically counts as 'productive' - it's paid work, so part of GDP - but me making an apple pie for my kids is not part of GDP so officially unproductive, as unpaid household labour.

Any idiot can drag up a kid? Perhaps, but I've seen plenty of idiots with careers too, not to mention arseholes.

No, that’s the thing. We are not all consuming the same resources here. Some people are taking way more than their share, but they feel entitled to because they are “successful”.

Isn't that what Mothers Day is for? For your kids to thank you for being their mum?

Not sure who else should be thanking you tbh, it doesn't matter to me or anyone else that you've had children and/or raised them well.

Well they're paying for it. And usually the money they pay employs others

Then there are those who only cost resources.

I don't see why reproducing is an achievement likened to a career. It isn't. When I was a kid all the rural teens popped babies out left right and centre just for benefits. They'd time them to stretch it out so they could stay on benefits long term. That's not an achievement or worth congratulating.

I don't see simply reproducing and being a parent in itself an achievement as such that needs congrats and recognition myself.
Sure parenting is work and can be damn hard work but so is owning pets or buying a house and maintaining it etc some things we do in life and choices we make are just that and come with work and maintenance involved. Not something we should be constantly congratulated on nor is it comparable to working your way up in a career and being recognised for the work put in.

Having a child just adds to this. People are not in general,having children through altruism, we do it as we want to.

Are people having careers due to altruism though? I wish more were. I know some who are but I don’t believe their careers are the type that are most often described as successful or perhaps even as “careers” in many cases. Having children doesn’t add very much to the problem unless you are wealthy enough to overconsume.

They're not comparable, surely? It's like building your own house by hand then wanting society to give you a pat on the back and say it has equal value as having a high-flying career.

I don't mean this in a cruel way, but having children is something you choose to do for you and your family. If done well it's a personal achievement for sure, and you should be proud, but no one else cares.

I don't think being fertile is an achievement. Working hard towards a qualification and creating a career is. It's not an achievement to have unprotected sex.

They are paying for it, but that doesn’t actually help in any way with the problems those people are causing by over consuming, because they almost never pay the economic externalities.

When you have recurrent losses and suffer infertility, having kids feels like a far off achievement! Not just anyone can have kids, some of us struggle and some of us ultimately cannot manage it.

This reminds me of a Chris Rock sketch about people expecting praise for what you're just supposed to do. If you choose to have kid you're supposed to raise them. Why and from who are you expecting praise from for doing the bear minimum of rising your kids?

Raising children is hard and if you are giving it your best then you should give yourself a pat once in a while and acknowledge that.

However expecting other people to give you that pat or to appreciate you is unreasonable. You are not doing anyone a favour or contributing to society in any direct way (the way someone with a particular job might be).

You have children for yourself. For your own joy and fulfilment. I don't think it should be viewed as an achievement and I don't think people should be encouraged to think of it like that no matter how fantastic a job they are doing. If you need external validation to motivate you to do a good job with your kids then something is wrong.

What the fuck is this idea that a career benefits others and having children doesn't?

If a career benefits others, then people are need to do those careers. Most careers are based on consumerism, so people are needed to be consumers. But let's face it, the people society consider successful are people who "earn" a shit load of money. It's not the police officers, teachers, nurses, carers, refuse collectors etc.

We essentially congratulate people for winning power and commodities in our unequal society. We can't all be "successful" given that success is, with few exceptions, relative wealth and/or power.

And who do these successful careers usually benefit? My partner works for a bank. The bank benefits, my family benefits. Do I think the bank is a social good? No. Our tax really isn't as high as it should be. Society owes my partner no admiration, yet bestows it anyway.

I have more admiration for the caring, hard-working parents (almost always mothers) who do the relentless and necessary, albeit common, work of providing future generations of decent people.

*bare minimum

I think people do recognise when someone brings up children well.

I'm a teacher and earn 'a shit load if money' that's an achievement because I studied, went to uni for 4 years, got a degree and also contrived to society. If I'd chosen at 17 to instead of going to uni had unprotected sex and let nature done it's thing that's would not have been an achievement

• contributed

Strawman argument aside (most parents don't become so by having unprotected sex at 17) I've got news for you teacher, society doesn't value you. It should, but it doesn't. I think you've missed the point of my post.

Vecna I'm not sure where your data comes from but I've just met 30 parents at parents night at each one told me how much they value teachers. My data is firsthand. And yours?

Vecna: I've got news for you teacher, society doesn't value you. It should, but it doesn't. I think you've missed the point of my post.

And what is the point of this. Apart from being needlessly aggressive and plain rude. Ask yourself why you are so touchy.