Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

No it’s not, and of course they have the tools to survive in it - in fact my kids have more tools to survive than other people. My 4 year old DS can identify edible and poisonous plants, my 7 year old DS can operate DIY machinery and built structures out of wood, DD knows how to preserve fruit for example. I wonder how many kids of the same age can do that? When it comes down to it, it’s real life hands on skills that matter.

To be honest, I think it's unlikely that someone who puts a high value on equality would be in a relationship like that in the first place. They wouldn't ever marry someone who would consider their salary to be "irrelevant".

I earn around 5 times what my dh brings in. I have never considered my job to be more important than his, nor did I consider a bigger salary to be a reason for opting out of parenting. Quite the contrary, actually - the fact that I was more senior meant that my hours were much more flexible, so I was usually the default parent because it was easier for me to do that.

what I don’t get is why posters think equality means doing everything exactly 50/50. My parents value each other equally. My dad doesn’t think he’s more important because he was a high earner or whatever. My mums role complemented my dads role, they worked as a team in the way that benefited them. What’s unequal about that?!

@ForestFae

I absolutely would hate your lifestyle.

But when it co

I find defining people by their careers so odd. I hate it when people ask kids “what do you want to do when you’re older?” As if little kids should be dreaming of labour. Society is absolutely obsessed with it.

As a qualified careers adviser and someone who has spent years training people to be careers advisers I have spent my entire career asking young people this question.

It's about finding a passion, something that you will enjoy that will also pay the bills ( cos, you know, everyone needs money)
It's an important question to ask. If you didn't have a husband supporting you what would you do forestfae???!

So why should yours be forced on me, if we’re in agreement we would each intensely dislike the others circumstances?

You literally disagreed with a poster who said:

Which is why it is important to teach your children about all their options and to have an open mind.

And said you go further and think you need to raise your kids away from a harmful society.

Honestly I don’t know why I’m replying as you move the goalposts so often it makes it impossible to debate with you.

I get that, but I’m assuming you don’t ask little ones that?! I’ve had people ask my DD who’s almost 4…

If I could pick anything? Anything at all? Something self employed. I don’t like having to work on someone else’s schedule or having to answer to anyone. I’d probably go back to university and do another degree, in fine art, and develop my painting business (I am an artist and take commissions but I don’t do it as a career as such, I paint because I enjoy it and sometimes other people like my work too).

Anothernamechangeplease - he's not opting out of parenting. He is as much of a parent as I am because he's providing for his family. sometimes when opportunities present, you have to go with it. Not all jobs are the same. Not everyone receives a fixed salary or works for an organisation. He was incredibly full on for quite some years when the kids were younger because he was building things up but, on the flip side, by 46 he is semi-retired and now just selects things he's interested in. And he WFH mainly these days.

What goalposts have been moved? They know what society is. They know what jobs are. But they’re not raised in the thick of it and they’re not aware of stuff like social media, reality TV, celebrities etc.

I think it's fine for people to agree between them to take on different roles.

What is unequal is that these roles are so often dictated by gender stereotypes, and that women are so often tipped into the financially more vulnerable position of caring for children while men go out and further their careers. You only have to read MN to see how many women are left high and dry as a result of this division of labour when the relationship breaks down.

I think it's fine to have one SAHP and one WOHP if that's what both people want, though personally I would always choose a more balanced division of labour for my own family. However, I won't be convinced that we have equality until we have an equal number of SAHDs as we have SAHMs.

@ForestFae

Where have I said it should be?

I'm not in charge

You can live your sexist unequal life all you want

@catculture

Why on earth would I choose to have kids with someone who valued the markets?

I get that, but I’m assuming you don’t ask little ones that?! I’ve had people ask my DD who’s almost 4…

It's really important to teach careers education from a young age and to ask those questions. If it were up to me careers education would be statutory in primary school - it's an excellent way of challenging stereotypes and raising aspirations.
The good schools already do this, I'm a governor at a primary school and have responsibility for careers.

It's so important. The earlier the better!!

I'm honestly not knocking it if it works for you, and I agree that providing is an important part of parenting. It's just a very different type of relationship and not one that I would personally choose, but if it suits you, fair enough.

For arguments sake - what if more women want to be SAHP than men do? I get your point, but I don’t think you’re ever going to get a 50/50 split if it helps at all, DHs dad was a SAHP when DH was little, and DHs mum is a dentist who still works even now. But yes that’s not the norm - however providing men and women have an equal choice in the matter, does the % matter?

No it’s not, and of course they have the tools to survive in it - in fact my kids have more tools to survive than other people. My 4 year old DS can identify edible and poisonous plants, my 7 year old DS can operate DIY machinery and built structures out of wood, DD knows how to preserve fruit for example. I wonder how many kids of the same age can do that? When it comes down to it, it’s real life hands on skills that matter.

That's cool. And probably very helpful in an apocalypse. Meanwhile, what if your son decides he wants to be a teacher one day. Will you disown him for becoming something you hate? Or is it fair if your daughter gives up a job she adores to become a SAHM because YOU have made her think that's the only right way to do it if she wants to have a family?

How is it sexist when it’s chosen by both parties? And how is it sexist given DH does the nights when the DC wake up even when hes at work? Wtf.

And yes, I'm well aware of the challenges of being self employed and of the particular pressures that can create... another reason why I was probably more the "default parent" than my self employed dh, despite earning several multiples of his salary.

Why would you want little kids thinking of careers?! This just sounds like indoctrination into the status quo tbh.

"Why on earth would I choose to have kids with someone who valued the markets?"

What are you talking about now?

No, if they have an equal choice, then it doesn't matter. However, I don't think they have anything like an equal choice right now.

Of course I wouldn’t disown him. I’m aware my kids may have to get jobs in imperfect systems. I’ve had to work in them myself in the past. Being critical of the system of economics we have doesn’t mean I hate everyone who works in it.

I’ve never told any of my kids they have to be a SAHP - if they decide to because of their upbringing, I don’t see how that’s any different to Jewish kids being Jewish due to upbringing, or vegetarian kids being vegetarian due to upbringing. We all bring our kids up with the values that are important to them.

For what it’s worth, DS1 has told me he doesn’t believe in the same religion as I do (DH and I have different beliefs). I think that’s fine and I’ve told him he absolutely doesn’t have to share my beliefs, his dads beliefs or anyone’s, and as long as he’s respectful of others beliefs if doesnt matter. So my kids aren’t forced to share everything I believe in

with the values we believe are important to them* that should say

@ForestFae

Because its reinforcing the sexist norm that women are better off at home. Your 7 yo already thinks this.

@catculture

You asked me what I would do if my oh worked making more money on the markets before I'd had coffee or some other sexist nonsense

I wouldnt be with someone who wanted that kind of career

Because even little kids should know they have life options open to and explained to them. So that they know about and will have choices. So that the choices they make are actual choices, rather than things they do because it’s just what they think adults do. So that when they’re older, they can decide whether they’d like to follow your lead and live in a remote rural setting, with their parents living in their doorstep, doing a minimal amount of paid work just to pay the bills, to not be able to drive, to dedicate their lives to raising a family.

Or, to make their own mind up about whether they want to make a different choice for their own futures.

Showing variety and choice is the very opposite of indoctrination.