Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

So who was with your kids when you worked TopGub?

I think we can all agree that parenting - or, at least, parenting well - has immense value. It's simply that some of us do not believe that being a SAHP makes you a better parent in any way. Consequently we don't see any intrinsic value in the SAHP role per se.

That isn't too say that SAHPs aren't adding value as parents. Of course they are. I just don't think they're adding any more or less value than the average WOHP.

@catculture

Their dad?

Weirdly enough

Then preschool, school (still their dad and now their nana too if we're both working)

That’s not what was said though, you said you’re doing the same as a SAHP

Maybe I just see parenting/raising children different then. Because to me your job as a parent is to turn a weak, useless baby into a strong, healthy, smart, kind, open-minded, productive adult. That's all. To me, how that happens doesn't actually matter as long as it happens. You can try to do it all by yourself from start to finish, or you can involve other people from the start, or start with one then move to the other. It doesn't really matter as long as a "strong, healthy, smart, kind, open-minded, productive adult" is the outcome. You can think one way is better than the other, but it really isn't.

So do what works best for your family, but don't break your back trying to do something a certain way because you think it's the "right" way, and don't go thinking other people are doing it "wrong" because they're doing it differently.

But, raising your children to think there is a "best" way, and therefore other people are being disadvantaged, is bad parenting in my opinion.

They are. They're giving their children experiences and education. Is that not what you're doing when you take them out and educate them?

I worked full time but I was never out of the house from 8am to 6pm in any case. Before she started school, DD spent 4 hours with a nanny each morning, which typically included some nap time. She was then with me all afternoon from 1pm to 7pm. Then I would go back to work for 3 hours while DH put her to bed. Working hours don’t have to be inflexible, commutes don't have to be long (if they exist at all). It isn't necessarily a choice between nursery for 10 hours a day or being a SAHP. Once dd had started school, we didn't use paid childcare at all, we both worked flexibly and shared the pick-ups and drop-offs between us.

Yes but I am doing it. While at work, you are not. Maybe you’re paying someone else to, maybe you do it at the weekend. But while working youre not doing the same thing as I am doing during the day.

"Their dad?

Weirdly enough"

Well it's not weird because that's your particular circumstance.

Supposing you were married to s different man. Supposing he said to you, "I'm in Geneva this afternoon. Then I might need to go to NYC straight from there, but tbc. Don't forget, I'm not here next week ..,, "

You have 4 children. Two to get to and from school every day (different schools). A toddler and a baby will be in tow. School runs involve the car and traffic. They have clubs and allsorts after school to get them to, while trying to stop the other kids whinging.

Yes but I am doing it. While at work, you are not. Maybe you’re paying someone else to, maybe you do it at the weekend. But while working youre not doing the same thing as I am doing during the day.

I agree with that. SAHPs probably do more childcare than WOHPs in most cases. (Not always!) I don't personally think that equates to more parenting or better parenting, though, and I suspect that's where we differ.

Is this not about the children, though? As long as it happens, surely that's what's important? Why do you think your involvement is more important than your children's needs being met?

as I said, DS is friends with kids with a variety of families, including kids in foster care, kids who are adopted, kids with same sex parents. So I don’t think that’s a fair assumption about his experiences

No it's not. But you are comparing your parenting and your husband's. Which isn't really comparing your parenting vs most working parents (at least in the context we are discussing). Becuase many working parents don't have a SAHP that does all the parenting other than earning money. So we still have to do homework, play, bond, support, home admin for, activity arranging, argue with, tidy up after, cook for, etc etc etc our kids. We have to find the time - in those 3-4 hours - to do a huge chunk of the stuff you have all day to do and that your husband doesn't really need worry about because you do it. It's not as simple as you are putting it - a lot of the stuff you do in that time needs to be done regardless.

So yes, we may not have the continual mess or have to make lunch at lunch time. Lunch is often still made (at breakfast time or the night before), the mess from the morning is still there when we get back as there's not time to sort it otherwise, so while there may be less practical stuff to do there is also far less time and it's not proportionate.

So yes, it's not the same. WP needs to do about 75% of the stuff you need to do, in about 25% of the time.

Because I think in many cases, including mine, the parents are better suited to meet the kids needs than a third party. Child to adult ratios, for one, are often better with parents

Of course. People make different choices about their lives - who they marry, what jobs they do, how many kids they have etc. Naturally, circumstances will be different depending on those choices, and they will therefore choose to organise their lives in different ways. That doesn't mean that one way is inherently better or worse than another way.

I suppose that depends what the SAHP does during the time really, doesn’t it.

@catculture

I wouldnt be with a man who prioritised his career over mine or his childcare responsibility and I wouldnt have 4 kids

We've spent 13 years working round each other though. So yeah, we made it work.

Bringing up nice well mannered kids is a huge achievement and should be applauded. But most kids running around are close to being feral and that is not an achievement

Cool. Other people have different priorities and values. Why do you think yours is objectively better?

You can't - objectively - see the issue with a man who prioritses his career over that of his wife's and spending time with his children? Espeically in terms of equality?

Not if the couple are in agreement that that’s the best system for their particular family. My dad often work away and was in different countries a lot. My mum worked very very part time (2 short days and full term time). I had a lovely childhood.

If you are picking up your kids at 5/6pm ", you are going home, making dinner, giving them a bath and bedtime.

You are not doing all the other things they would have done on the other 10 real time hours of that day. How can you possibly think you are. I don't mean that as a criticism because you have been at work and that's equally valid. But, if you child has a childminder - maybe they've been in the park for hours? Maybe your child made some friends new friends on the swings? Maybe they saw x,y,z? Maybe they fell over or had a strop? Maybe they were painting / baking / swimming? Maybe they were sad because another kid was mean? You will have had a full day at work and your child will have had an equally full day. You can't bend time and squash 12 hours into 3. It makes no sense.

@ForestFae

Because I value equality.

I expect my oh to play an equal role in the care of his children and to support my career

For my kids to be brought up knowing men and women are equal and should be treated equally

And because balance between work and home life is ideal for every one

And my career is important to me. As are my kids

DO you really think tha'ts alll that happens? bath dinner and bed? For working parents? That might be your husband's input, but I find a way to squeeze in all those things I mentioned, becuase that's part of parenting. If you can't see that that will explain why have taken the positon you did.

And you have perpetuated yours parents role modelling. Men go out to work and women stay home and look after the kids. Becuase men's careers are more important. Of course there, objectively, is an issue with that.

You think parents are better teachers than people with training and there is nothing to be learned from a room full of other people?

You are very me, me, me, I, I, I. I don't see much about broadening your children's minds and experiences beyond your own anticapitalistic, hippy world.

Having one gay uncle and knowing an orphan isn't teaching them anything other than to look down on people.