To think you tell someone pre going on a date

[floralarrangement]

that you have a 2 year old and a 4 year old?!

Just got back from a brunch date and this was casually brought up. I feel like this is a HUGE deal, especially due to the ages. I don't have children and don't want to date someone who does. I'm 28 so maybe I'll change my mind on this later in life.

I feel like he didn't tell me (and probably other women) in advance as a way of getting dates from people who otherwise would've said no. Is this too harsh? For those of you who do OLD, do you tell people in advance/put it on your profile?

We work together (huge organisation - didn't know of him before & none of my friends do) which meant I felt pressured have a good date with him because I hate awkwardness. I already have one ex-boyfriend at work which I find stressful, I'd rather not make it a pattern with multiple people I have to avoid for one reason or another

@Tandora I didn't say everyone thinks like that. I said most 30-something professional men in London with their pick of attractive 20 and 30-something women aren't clamouring to date single mothers. If you don't believe that's true, then there's little point in arguing with you.

I still can't get over the entitlement of some parents thinking that childless adults in the prime of their life want to be making arrangements around someone else's kids. That anyone who chooses not to date someone with kids is 'shallow' and 'narrow minded'.

It's so unbelievably entitled. Children are incredibly tying and restrictive. What makes you think someone who hasn't had their own is just dying to look after and plan around yours?

Errr…(just one example) No qualification of “most” seen here:

Men do not think like this. They just don't. Raising another man's kids is not desirable. They might date the woman despite this, if they like her enough, but you honestly think it's ever a selling point on an app

But im glad you’ve conceded that some men might think/ feel differently.

That anyone who chooses not to date someone with kids is 'shallow' and 'narrow minded

who said this?

@pixie5121 nobody has claimed men purposely seeking out single mothers isn't a flag that needs to be checked out. In fact I think just about every single mother knows it is - if I matched with a man who said he actively seeks out SMs the first thing that would come to mind is cocklodger followed by more nefarious considerations. Not always of course - maybe he's a single father himself, maybe he can't have children of his own (I've dated a man who ideally wanted to end up with a SM for that exact reason), or maybe he works off shore / abroad and has found through experience that it's less of an issue for SMs because for the first couple of years building a relationship it can be a case of only seeing each other at weekends / they are in less of a rush to move in together / a multitude of other valid reasons.

As for: No spontaneous late drinks, no staying over, no last-minute trip to Paris for a couple of nights?

I have done every single one of these things as a single mother with people I've dated in the past. Not everyone is as lucky but their Dad had them set days every week and because I had them so young, they still had 8 grandparents young enough and willing enough to take them overnight, not to mention aunties and uncles with kids the same age. Now they're older that's not even an issue anymore - I'm off out for a coffee tonight with a date who asked me just last night. No "huge restrictions on lifestyle" here. You seem to have a very black and white view of what single motherhood entails and assume it's all a massive burden when actually I've found it's the best of both worlds.

You are also assuming that every man is purely seeking a partner to do these things with. Personally I'd rather a boyfriend had his friends for spontaneous late night drinks and me for Thursday night 'few drinks in the house over a game of cards' type thing. I don't need a drinking buddy and a man actively seeking me to provide that would be a red flag. I don't want to be your mate or your fwb, I want to be your future wife 😂 I want to be the person you can sit in with on a Tuesday night and have a better night than you'd have alone.

As for weekends away, it's never once been an issue. I've been to paris, rome, barcelona, belfast, london, highland cabins etc with boyfriends all while making sure my kids had at least 2 or 3 holidays abroad each year. I would never date a man who wanted to "travel" and again, I see this as the red flag of a man who isn't looking to settle down.

Life choices come with consequences. Having a child restricts your options.

Nobody is saying they don't. But as Tandora has said, humans are far too complicated for the very narrow views you're doubling down on.

Almost every woman OLD will have made life choices or have attributes that restrict their dating options. I'm well aware having children young has restricted mine, but likely no more than if I hadn't had them and was now faced with trying to meet someone who wanted to settle down with me in the next year or two because I'm racing against my bodyclock at the exact time "the good men" have mostly been scooped up or aren't yet ready to settle down.

In some ways I think that makes it easier for me, but that is a very personal thing. You clearly believe my way would have made it harder for yourself - and that is perfectly valid - but you have absolutely no right to tell other people what your life choices have done for your "stock value".

As evidenced by the way you reacted when I tried to do that to you (which proved my point nicely).

I used the term "narrow views" so before pixie5121 points to me - I don't think it's narrow minded to have children as a dealbreaker. Dealbreakers are always, always valid.

What is narrow minded is the view that every man has the same dealbreakers or should assign set universal market values (euuuugh) to women based on a set life choice or attribute.

And I think most people agree considering when I made the point "single mother or capable career woman" many people took issue with it -- which was exactly why I made it. To illustrate just how ludicrous it is saying men want childfree women, or men want uneducated women, or men avoid children, or men avoid career women as if they are one big humongous group who all want the same thing.

The only I standby is that generally speaking, and in my experience, and something I'm slowly discovering the older I get, is what I said earlier. I have personally found that men are far less concerned with what you have and put more "stock value" into the way you make them feel.

And no, as much as pixie5121 twisted that into men want agreeable trophy wives that was not at all what I meant. Some men might want to be made to feel clever and special, sure, but other men might want to feel challenged. Because they're all fucking different 😂.

@ringalingling you just don't get it.

You might be very fortunate with childcare options (far more than the average single parent) but even then, as a parent of young children (and this is what I'm talking about - young children) you can't just do stuff, can you? You need to arrange childcare in advance, get home when you said you would (or make further arrangement last minute), make sure you're checking your phone regularly in case of any emergencies.

I can't believe you're genuinely trying to con people into thinking a parent of young children can live like a single, childfree person. It's utter delusion. You simply cannot be a good parent and live the lifestyle of a childfree person. The two things are incompatible with each other.

I don't think every man is looking for someone to do things with. I think the vast majority of 30-something single professional men in London are, though. I don't know many of those whose idea of a great Friday night would be sitting watching a film with someone else's kids asleep upstairs.

The issue I have is the sense of entitlement. Multiple posters having criticised those who rule out single parents, as if they have some God given right to a partner. It's mental.

@ringalingling that was what you meant, though, because that's what you said. That men want attractive women who make them feel good. As if a man like that is some kind of prize. Deluded.

Wow. This thread is still going.

Certain posters with very odd ideas about relationships (AS anyone 👀) are still determined to flog the dead horse that is their point.

This is very well said @pixie5121 :

My issue isn't with people having children in their twenties. I know people who met their soulmate at 18 and had kids in their twenties and are very happy. My issue is with people who rushed into marriage and kids in their twenties and are now looking to date while their kids are still in nappies. Red flags galore.

Children limit options on the dating market in your 20s and 30s - fact. Most parents think their kids are worth it anyway because they're magical, life enhancing little things who limit our options in plenty of ways outside the dating market too - including extortionate term-time holidays and kid friendly (read: terrible) restaurants. We all put with it because we think they're incredible in many other ways and it's just what you sign up for when you have them.

I don't see how it's depressing news that children limit options. The dating market is still vast. Single parents can date other single parents and many open-minded single people without children so long as they're upfront and honest in the first few messages. Having a child is not a character flaw. The issue with the OP's guy is that he's a liar by omission.

To the people still getting worked up about my stock market analogy... Dating websites publish articles about this kind of thing all the time. Some people simple have more market 'value' and to turn a blind eye to this is entitled (like OP's date). Breaking news: more people want to date people in their 20s than people in their 60s. If an average man in his 60s approaches an average woman in her 20s, most people would think he was a creep who lacks self awareness. It might not be PC to say she's 'out of his league' but we're all thinking it.

It's not as straightforward when it comes to single parents but it is entitled not to be aware this is a limiting factor when dating in your 20s and 30s. It's a time when people who want children still have plenty of time to start their own family - or not as the case may be - and they have more options than single parents and more people who want to date them.

@pixie5121 The issue I have is the sense of entitlement.

And I'm in total agreement. OPs date was very entitled to chat for two weeks and purposely hide his children. OP (and anyone) is never unreasonable to rule out single parents (or anyone else!). I think where we keep clashing is on blanket statements about what single parents have to offer and what Men (all of them) want.

Glad we managed to find some common ground after pages of accusing each other of being delusional. 😁 Prob flogging a dead horse with the rest so I'll leave it there and wish you the best of the luck with dating (especially with the guy on Hinge who took massive offence to being asked if they had kids haha! That was gold 🙈).

@RobynNora I think we agreed earlier we'd reached common ground, your last post sums it up basically. I've only ever said that having children isn't the only thing that limits your dating pool nor that it limits the pool to the extent you are totally undesirable. But that is the case with all kinds of dealbreakers, and it's VERY rare that a person doesn't have at least one.

A SP who expects their kids not to limit their choices at all is entitled. So is the 60yo guy. So is the woman who definitely wants kids and the woman who definitely doesn't. Good thing we're not all the same.

It's been a blast 💥

@ringalingling he didn't take 'massive offence' to being asked if he had kids. He responded exactly how any normal person would. It's a weird thing to ask. Dating is difficult enough already, without having to assume someone has secret kids and won't tell you unless you specifically ask.

@pixie5121 okaaay 😬 you were the one who said he was surprised, offended, and now suspicious of you. And I believe you. I sprinkled in the massive as a bit of a joke / hyperbole to end the debate on a lighter note which I thought was clear by the "haha" and can't look emoji but it obviously didn't land so, apologies!

I mean, this is the normal reaction. You're acting as if he did something wrong. He reacted as any normal, decent guy would have.

I think it depends on the social demographic around you. Im not a professional and live in social housing. Being childfree by choice has made me very much the outlier. At various intervals throughout the decades it has made me feel quite isolated at times.

As someone nearing my 40s with 2 almost grown children when I started dating again I stating in my profile that I was not looking to date anyone with small children the fact being my children were almost grown and I did not want to restart that part of my life. I was told by several men that they were glad to see it as they too either did not want young children, had none, or like mine were grown. Instead I wound up meeting someone by chance and am now married with a 12 year old bonus daughter who I can't imagine not in my life and my children have grown and moved away. I don't look at myself as mom...merely a mentor and maybe someday a friend and she is happy with that and I divert all parenting to the parents which has made the relationship much better and easier.