To cut DD off?

[BrokenToy]

DD is 18 (just). She’s been living pretty much at her boyfriend’s house for months now.

She informed me the other week that she doesn’t live at home anymore and so we’d have to pay her to babysit/dog sit for our weekend away. Weekend away had been booked for over a year. We were left with no choice but to stump up cash (we were already paying for a takeaway for her and the BF) or lose hundreds of pounds of concert tickets/hotel.

She sent me a text on Saturday about needing new jeans. I didn’t respond. She then phoned me yesterday screaming down the phone that I’m abusive and neglectful and leaving her without clothes. Two weeks ago I gave her £50 to buy summer clothes for the holiday we are taking her on in July. She is constantly asking for small bits of cash here and there (tampons, printer credit for college, things like that that she knows we won’t say no to) and DH and I have just realised this adds up to £155 so far this month…

I’m done. I’m about ready to say fine, you’ve moved out, no more monthly bus pass, pocket money, clothes, takeaways. She works five hours a week and could work more. She smokes and drinks. She’s using us purely as a bank and only contacts us when she needs a top up. I also really really don’t want to take her on holiday but that’s a sunk cost and at least it’s AI so she won’t be asking for cash.

I do sympathise OP, and I am not "piling on", parenting is very challenging, but she's still a sixth former
Yes, her attitude isn't great and you say that she's always asking for money, but she isn't living at home anymore so there are some costs you no longer need to pay for her.
You are not paying for food etc at home.. but she is in a position, where despite earning, she is in full time education, so the potential to do more work isn't there if she needs to work on her A levels. So she still has to ask you and therefore for your approval, for more or less every purchase. She has to justify everything and resents asking, just as you resent being asked.
£50 for college a month (£12.50 a week - £2.50 a day) barely covers lunches. The occasional pair of jeans is not unreasonable. The money dialogue would ease if there was an agreed regular reasonable allowance and this would teach her budgeting. You would both know where you stood and you both would not have to have these combative angry conversations. Could you get a third party to help you sort out a budget?
You sound very angry and frustrated and that is understandable, but if all she can see is your anger with her, its not surprising that she makes an exit. What would she have to do to reduce that anger? Does she know what that is?
The example of the meal out, where she came, ate, and left early stands out...why did she leave early? Was there an uncomfortable, angry atmosphere? Put yourself in her shoes... what was the "tone" of your conversation with her Did it come across that you were still angry with her and that is why she left early?

It takes time to get from loggerheads back to a reasonable communication because you have to trust that you won't just get even more hurt. You each need to know each other's expectations. It's easy for conversations with teenagers for the subjects to revolve around school work, money, things they need to do and sometimes it can come across (unintentionally) as over the top to the recipient.
If you want to change things, as the adult, you have to take the lead or nothing will change. It's no good saying she is welcome at home if you are still very angry with her and see her as a drain on your finances. It sounds like things are so fraught between you that even though you say she's welcome, she can tell that you are angry and frustrated with her and so the circle continues.
You have to try to find some common ground, something you can talk about outside the landmine topics. Yes she ought to pitch in and there's probably apologies to be made on both sides, but its more likely to be you who has to take the lead and show her that there is a way forward. Its a case of building bridges one step at a time and its not easy but its worth trying. Can you get some mediation? I hope you find a way through this difficult time, it would be so sad for you two not to resolve this in some way.

Chances are she will need you before you need her

And there it is.

The games that this mindset provokes.

Odds are you are betting that somehow dd's life will end up a car crash and she will come grovelling back. It is precisely this expectation - this kind of thought process that does the most damage to families. Instead of focusing on repairing and healing the broken relationship, you are just working out who is likely to lose/blink first and be back with their tail firmly between their legs.

What if she decides dd no longer needs this power play in her life, and disappears altogether thatsshallot for a life that does not involve manipulation, weaponising of money where real love and support should be?. With your odds on betting system playing with her heart strings flippantly will your bet on her return (or lack of) be worth it when you have lost her forever?

I do agree with this. I think the OP has stated that because she makes a home and board available to DD, she is supporting her. But of course she will be saving on food and heating costs, because another family is feeding and housing her. I wonder if the other family are happy to do that because they feel sorry for DD?

Then the OP wants the DD to look after her dog and other child in return for a takeaway for the entire weekend while she is away. Of course the OP should have concerts but it must be hurtful for the DD that she gets nothing and uses up almost none of the OP's resources. Maybe she's not good at expressing this. Maybe she sees her contemporaries getting much more parental support.

The world isn't like what it was 30 or 40 years ago, where you could walk into a job straight out of school and earn enough to pay rent. Most young people do go onto further education of some sort and thats why the government has a recommended level of financial support for them.

The DD left home at 17, goes to college, has a part time job and a stable relationship. I don't think she's doing too badly.

I think there are some incredible bits of advice on this thread, particularly from @catsetc. I do feel for the OP and I don't think she should be harshly judged. Not every parent has had to go through what she has and we're not all trained in the best way to deal with such a situation.

Saying that, OP, I think the bigger picture here is that you almost seem to think that because your DD has moved out, she has made a choice to be independent that she should fend for herself or that because she doesn't live at home, any time she does, she is scrounging off you. I've heard of parents who insist of their kids paying rent to them once they hit 18/19 and this for me indicates the worst kind of parenting relationship. At the end of the day, they are your child and personally, I think you should be responsible for them throughout their lives.

There will come a time when your daughter is on her feet and has had enough life experience to know better and it might then be fair for you to say enough is enough but she is only 19 and many years away from being in that position. The other thing you need to understand is that despite not understanding finance, money will still the biggest issue for your DD because she is still young and she simply reverts to the status quo of asking you for money when she needs things which is a normal parent-child dynamic. Yes you might not like her spending money on cigarettes and drink but you're making this a financial issue when actually you should be trying to understand what you could have done or can do to discourage her from smoking or drinking in the first place. The fact that you give her money and she spends it on that isn't the issue.

I know it's difficult with the way your DD is behaving but you need to try and remove money from this situation. Yes you pay a mortgage for a lovely house in which your DD has a room but again, that is a financial point which isn't going to be understood by your DD at this stage. My parents still never let me pay for anything and if I buy dinner using my card, my dad will literally transfer the money into my account with telling me the next day - I'm 35, married with two kids and much more financially better off than them!

You are the parent and the first step will need to come from you and that will be removing the financial/monetary thinking behind your relationship. Give your DD what she needs but alongside that you need to work on your relationship and understand why she behaves the way she does. Good luck.

She doesn’t ‘get nothing’. We threw a fabulous party for her 18th and sent her the next weekend on a trip with three of her friends. She’s happy to be a member of this family on those terms, using my house to host her friends, going on a trip we paid for.

She has a great lifestyle by anyone’s standards. But no I’m not going to give her £60 just like that for a pair of expensive jeans., definitely not after being shouted at for not immediately sending the requested money.

I’m also not emotionally unavailable, not sure where that’s come from. She was brought up in a house full of love and laughter. We’ve always been a huggy family with lots of I love yous and I’m proud of yous etc. I’m not some ice queen who’s rejected her.

ah thanks for clarifying re it being annually.

does OP not get Cb because of a high salary? i thought she meant they didn't get it because the daughter has moved out. you can't claim for a non resident child

She hasn’t moved out. She just thinks she has.

We don’t get child benefit because she left college and got an apprenticeship (lasted all of six weeks before they sacked her). We’ve never bothered reinstating it when she went back to college a)not even sure you can? And b)DH pays it back through tax anyway.

Was it just asd she was assessed for? sounds more like ADHD or PDA which wasn't really recognised (still isn't properly) until recently.

Maybe you have done already OP but i go not have a look at the profile of PDA. it helped me with my relationship with dd no end because the approach you need to take goes against pretty much all parenting advice

Ah i see so if he pays it back then income is high. I know these days 60k doesn't go far but and doesn't feel well off but I wondered if you'd suffered as a result of her moving out in terms of lost benefits

We’ve always been a huggy family with lots of I love yous and I’m proud of yous etc. I’m not some ice queen who’s rejected her

Why do you think your relationship has broken down to such a degree?
Do you think it is a 100% dd's fault?
Or are there things could have done differently?

What you do now really matters. If you cut her off that is going to be a very hard thing for her to come back from.

I used a lot of the parenting techniques around PDA. Lots of time between transitions, careful not to phrase things as a demand. Lots of routine and gentleness. But being a demand avoidant child is no excuse for the awful way she treats the rest of us now. At which point does she have to start taking responsibility for her behaviour?

Of course I don’t think it’s 100% her fault, nothing is that black and white.

And I’m not actually going to cut her off, it was a reaction to her saying she’s moved out and is a guest in our home (so doesn’t need to babysit) while asking for money for clothes etc.

she left college and got an apprenticeship (lasted all of six weeks before they sacked her)

The one thing I have noticed repeatedly throughout this thread, is that you never miss a chance to put her down directly or indirectly.

If you are doing this in real life, even 10% of what you are doing on here then you have your answer.

So the apprenticeship didn't work out, please fgs cut the poor kid some slack. You are being very harsh.

Does she have any diagnosis, op? Borderline/emotionally unstable personality disorders have some traits in common with ASD.

When my daughter was being vile, a piece of advice I was given that I found helpful was - as her mum I knew what she needed.

It sounds like she doesn’t need jeans, but she might need your love, in spite of her unpleasantness. You seem to equate love with material things. I wonder if when she’s screaming for jeans, she’s really screaming for something else? You might know what it is.

The tone in which you speak about your two children is so different. I’m not sure you notice that? Something made her move out at 17. What was it? Could you ask her? Ultimately, whilst of course she needs to treat you with more respect, her needs come first. She’s pretty much a child. You’re the adult.

I think I remember a previous post... you run/work in/manage a restaurant and she was at the time welcome to have far more hours if she wanted to earn more on top of the things you were paying for already (phone, travel card etc)...

If thats still the case, that she could just have more hours and earn more IF she wanted to, then no YANBU to refuse to pay out for yet more clothes that she wants but doesn't need.

I don't think you can cut her off from everything - well I mean legally yeah sure, you could, she doesn't live there, she wouldn't pass any sort of benefits related 'does this person live with you' test at all.

Morally, mm and if you want to try to have any relationship with her, mm.. no.

On the other hand if the only relationship on offer is her demanding money and you being bullied into handing it over, is that one you want? IS she going to come to you for help with anything else if you keep that door open? Or is she going to turn to others anyway? Maybe she needs the shock of you saying no and meaning it?

As for PP with the 'I wonder why the OP doesn't just use a kennels/dog sitter'..

If you read, her DD changed her mind the DAY BEFORE. You cannot get a decent (or even tbh, a bloody awful one) kennels, dog sitter, home boarder with 24 hours notice. In fact you'd struggle to get one with less than several MONTHS notice.

Almost certainly, OP's DD knows that and so knew that by changing her mind last minute and demanding payment, she'd have her mother over a barrel and get that payment.

I don’t put her down. I was rightfully disappointed that she did no work at college and then no work at her apprenticeship. She pretended she had been sacked out of the blue when in fact there was a long email chain BEGGING her to hand in the work.

College I understood a bit because it was lockdown and she chose the wrong subjects and did at least ask for help. But I was furious about the apprenticeship which she kept telling us was going marvellously. Plus the fact I was driving her to and from for 45 mins each way and every day without fail she’d beg and whine to go to McDonalds on the way home (which she wanted me to pay for). I was getting up at six am everyday to take her, to be back in time to take ds2 to school, and then go and do a full days work (often 14hr days, in which case DH did the pick up and she mithered him for McDs instead). I’m angry that she put us through all that for nothing. But I haven’t gone on about it to her apart from one blow up, for which I apologised.

the total sum that the government think that a young person in education not living at home needs in order to live off is approx £10k p.a

£10k pa?! Where are families supposed to pull this money out of? Are student loans not a thing anymore? It's also perfectly possible to work through uni/FE, and support oneself, apart from perhaps a final year or maybe some courses which are really full time.

I want to caveat my post - I’m not saying you don’t love your daughter, but does she feel that?

Pretty much all you’re doing in this post is putting her down. Do you think she doesn’t know how you feel about her?

She doesn’t ‘get nothing’. We threw a fabulous party for her 18th and sent her the next weekend on a trip with three of her friends. She’s happy to be a member of this family on those terms, using my house to host her friends, going on a trip we paid for.

I also really really don’t want to take her on holiday but that’s a sunk cost and at least it’s AI so she won’t be asking for cash.

She has a great lifestyle by anyone’s standards. But no I’m not going to give her £60 just like that for a pair of expensive jeans., definitely not after being shouted at for not immediately sending the requested money.

But these are just the normal things you do for your children if you love them. Its not as if she can help that she used to live in your house or being a member of your family.

She hasn’t moved out. She just thinks she has.

I’m done. I’m about ready to say fine, you’ve moved out, no more monthly bus pass, pocket money, clothes, takeaways.

I'm so confused. I bet your DD is too.

I'm sorry but 20 years ago was the early 2000's. It was absolutely not the norm to force a CHILD of 16 to move out and get a job in the 00's and you can't honestly consider this a good bit of advise for people. Times have not changed that much in 20 or even 30 years!

Can you list one thing you like about your daughter OP?

@Yellowcakestand but OP' DD is not you. Op says she marginally avoided being diagnosed with ASD.

Had an abusive father, mother was dealing with abuse when DD was a baby and has a brother only a year older. Then a new man came to mother's life at age 2. ( DD is 18 now, and DD knows her step father for 16 years.

Clearly she didn't have a stable, nurturing environment at home.

She keeps telling me she has moved out and doesn’t have to engage with us or do minor chores like babysitting or even cleaning her own hair dye up from the bathroom (it’s your house, I don’t live here, you clean it if you want it clean).

I don’t agree she’s moved out but if she wants to she can, with all that goes with it. I’m not actually going to do that to her but I’m just desperately trying to get through to her.