Page 9 | To not understand why the 'woman' question is so hard for politicians to answer?

Themidnightpig · 2022-05-29T14:14:23+00:00

Genuinely not sure if I'm missing something here. Constantly seeing it in the news politicians being unable to answer or getting flustered over the 'do women have penises' question. Surely the answer is as straight forward as 'No, women don't have penises but some Trans Women do and as a decent society we treat them as women in so far as possible' Why is this so hard for everyone to grapple with?

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 21:14

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:11

Of course it is.

Talking about people going to heaven?

Oh you mean like....singing hymns throughout school and attending services for Easter, lent, christmas.... Imagine.

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Again, what if they started calling you a bigot because you didn't believe in God?

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:14

PerfectionValley · 29/05/2022 21:12

How can you choose to be a different sex? You can't choose your sex, your race, your height. It is literally impossible and I think quite cruel to along with the lie.

I notice the be kind crowd never care a lot about the women that literally can not be in spaces with men. How are you being inclusive to them?

I dont believe in mixed spaces and neither does mu friend. Nice try though.

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:15

@Gadzookerykookery

Bang on.

100 percent

Interesting to see Pp suddenly claimed that the people who menstruate line offended them ....

On MN it's only Ok to be offensive, not to be offended.

SlightlyGeordieJohn · 29/05/2022 21:16

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Penguintears · 29/05/2022 21:17

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:03

I dont believe people can change sex but I do accept the sex they choose to be.

I dont believe in God but I accept that people do.

I dont think same sex people are attractive but I accept that others do.

Tbe thing that irritates me with 'gender critical' (egotistical term) is that people make it all about them. You dont object to trans, you object to what it means for you.

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You say you don't believe people change sex but you accept the sex they choose to be. How does that make any logical sense? If you can't change sex then you can't choose a sex?

Do you mean you accept the gender identity they choose? I am genuinely confused by this "logic".

Gadzookerykookery · 29/05/2022 21:17

That's not anyone forcing their beliefs on you. What if they started forcing you to chant certain prayers or mantras (a bit like 'transwomen are women'). …Would you not start taking issue with that just a little bit?

Like for instance the requirement for all UK schools to include a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature?

I do take issue with that. But nonetheless it is a requirement in almost every UK school, and largely we roll with it, and allow our children to attend, daily, for their entire schooling years.

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:17

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That is disgusting. Transphobic, and just outright vile. Reported

SlightlyGeordieJohn · 29/05/2022 21:19

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minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:19

Penguintears · 29/05/2022 21:17

You say you don't believe people change sex but you accept the sex they choose to be. How does that make any logical sense? If you can't change sex then you can't choose a sex?

Do you mean you accept the gender identity they choose? I am genuinely confused by this "logic".

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No.

It means I dont put mu belief on other people.

Johnnysgirl · 29/05/2022 21:20

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:11

Of course it is.

Talking about people going to heaven?

Oh you mean like....singing hymns throughout school and attending services for Easter, lent, christmas.... Imagine.

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No, not forcing you (although they're hardly doing that) to listen to their beliefs, forcing you to adopt their beliefs on pain of losing your job and being denounced as a heretic if you don't agree.
I can't work out if you're being deliberately obtuse or you're just... obtuse.

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:20

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I'm not going to engage with you any further because I think your posts are disgusting beyond measure.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 21:21

Interesting to see Pp suddenly claimed that the people who menstruate line offended them ....

Who 'suddenly' claimed anything?

There had been a lot of discussion about terms like 'people who menstruate' and similar like 'birthing bodies', before JKR ever put out that tweet. Since then we have had stuff like 'uterus havers' and even 'bodies with vaginas'. Many women have said they have found this an offensive way to refer to women, and had been told tough shit, and that they were bigots for objecting to being referred to in this way.

Whereas women have to refer to a man who physically assaulted them as 'she' in court (Maria Maclachlan) and must chant along with 'transwomen are women' lest they be seen as 'unkind'. The double standards are pretty stark.

That's why JKR tweeted what she did about 'people who menstruate'.

Why should we have to put up with being referred to in that way?

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:21

Johnnysgirl · 29/05/2022 21:20

No, not forcing you (although they're hardly doing that) to listen to their beliefs, forcing you to adopt their beliefs on pain of losing your job and being denounced as a heretic if you don't agree.
I can't work out if you're being deliberately obtuse or you're just... obtuse.

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Yes they are forcing me

It's part of the curriculum.

No, I just live in the real world

SlightlyGeordieJohn · 29/05/2022 21:21

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Johnnysgirl · 29/05/2022 21:21

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:19

No.

It means I dont put mu belief on other people.

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But you're happy for them to "put their beliefs" on you? And on the rest of us, of course. Why?

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:21

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 21:21

Interesting to see Pp suddenly claimed that the people who menstruate line offended them ....

Who 'suddenly' claimed anything?

There had been a lot of discussion about terms like 'people who menstruate' and similar like 'birthing bodies', before JKR ever put out that tweet. Since then we have had stuff like 'uterus havers' and even 'bodies with vaginas'. Many women have said they have found this an offensive way to refer to women, and had been told tough shit, and that they were bigots for objecting to being referred to in this way.

Whereas women have to refer to a man who physically assaulted them as 'she' in court (Maria Maclachlan) and must chant along with 'transwomen are women' lest they be seen as 'unkind'. The double standards are pretty stark.

That's why JKR tweeted what she did about 'people who menstruate'.

Why should we have to put up with being referred to in that way?

Is there no middle ground?

Cherryana · 29/05/2022 21:23

To me this is the sharp end of post modernism where there is no ‘concrete truth’ only personal perspective and interpretation.

One person is arguing for a ‘concrete fact’ eg biological evidence but the other refutes that as even a thing - as it’s not their perspective.

Is there such a thing as truth? Does anything exist outside of our own lens?

Some might say this debate is older than what it first appears.

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:23

Johnnysgirl · 29/05/2022 21:21

But you're happy for them to "put their beliefs" on you? And on the rest of us, of course. Why?

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Because it doesnt affect me.

I dont agree with mixed spaces, mixed sports, or mixed prisons.

If someone wants to call themselves John and I say he it really doesnt offend me..

Hence my question on the middle ground.

Penguintears · 29/05/2022 21:24

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:19

No.

It means I dont put mu belief on other people.

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So you're aware you're colluding in a lie but you do so to be supportive to your friends? I can kind of see why you might do that but don't you find it inauthentic to pretend you believe they've changed sex? Do your trans friends know that you sont really believe they have changed sex?

I have a Muslim friend but I don't pretend I believe in Allah. And my friend wouldn't want me to either

Gadzookerykookery · 29/05/2022 21:24

@Highlyquestionablehoumous her choice to be “flippant”. Many people found that “flippant” post to be highly offensive and dehumanising.

Flippancy (or taking the piss, or banter, or “it was just a joke, can’t you take a joke, omg you’re all so oversensitive”) does not win over people, who disagree with you.

It gets you lots of love and cookies from people who already agree with you. And makes a jolly and easily shared sound bite or screengrab for them to share.

To the people who disagree, or we’re perhaps on the fence and persuadable, it makes you look malevolent, spiteful, and of ill-intent.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 21:25

Gadzookerykookery · 29/05/2022 21:17

That's not anyone forcing their beliefs on you. What if they started forcing you to chant certain prayers or mantras (a bit like 'transwomen are women'). …Would you not start taking issue with that just a little bit?

Like for instance the requirement for all UK schools to include a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature?

I do take issue with that. But nonetheless it is a requirement in almost every UK school, and largely we roll with it, and allow our children to attend, daily, for their entire schooling years.

Again, if Christians started calling you a bigot because you stated you didn't believe in God, would you find that acceptable?

So why is it OK to do that to people who don't subscribe to the belief that men can become women, and that if a man says he is a woman we should accept that?

And actually, a lot of people have a problem with children being forced into acts of worship, and they don't physically and sexually violent threats thrown at them for it.

Johnnysgirl · 29/05/2022 21:25

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/05/2022 21:26

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 21:13

A lot of women found, and still find, 'people who menstruate' to be offensive and dehumanising.

But no one seems to give a fuck about that.

Oh no JKR 'crossed a line', by calling out the offensive, dehumanising erasure of womanhood in a 'flippant' way, whatever next!

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Would it have been better if rather than using humour JKR expressed the deep fury that so many women feel at our sex based language being removed and women as a sex class being excluded left right and centre by the inclusion of men in the new definition of women?
If you can't name women as an identifiable group then you can't analyse, argue for or protect women's rights, health and interests. And while that suits the misogynists leading this retrograde movement, it's depressing to see women buying into this self erasure.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 21:27

Gadzookerykookery · 29/05/2022 21:24

@Highlyquestionablehoumous her choice to be “flippant”. Many people found that “flippant” post to be highly offensive and dehumanising.

Flippancy (or taking the piss, or banter, or “it was just a joke, can’t you take a joke, omg you’re all so oversensitive”) does not win over people, who disagree with you.

It gets you lots of love and cookies from people who already agree with you. And makes a jolly and easily shared sound bite or screengrab for them to share.

To the people who disagree, or we’re perhaps on the fence and persuadable, it makes you look malevolent, spiteful, and of ill-intent.

It wasn't a joke. She was making a very serious point. Referring to women as 'people who menstruate' isn't funny.

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:27

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Cool. Tara.

Interesting you took on pedantic points with me but nobody addressed tbe frankly outrageous comment from a PP which broke numerous guidelines.

And you say your board isnt transphobic.

Its interesting you think I care what you think! Reminiscent of a school bully thinking people had to impress them. I dont.