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To not understand why the 'woman' question is so hard for politicians to answer?

269 replies

Themidnightpig · 29/05/2022 15:14

Genuinely not sure if I'm missing something here.

Constantly seeing it in the news politicians being unable to answer or getting flustered over the 'do women have penises' question.

Surely the answer is as straight forward as 'No, women don't have penises but some Trans Women do and as a decent society we treat them as women in so far as possible'

Why is this so hard for everyone to grapple with?

OP posts:
minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:47

Penguintears · 29/05/2022 21:43

Fair enough. Personally I couldn't cope with the cognitive dissonance but thank you for explaining your point of view.

Well, because I love my friend.

I don't like the analogy of would I agree my anorexic friend was fat because that would be damaging to them.

If I felt my trans friend was engaging in harmful behaviour, making bad medical choices or doing things I thought would be dangerous I would tell them, same as any friend.

But I'm not going to refuse to call them he and accept their view on things just because I don't accept it.

In the same way that I don't not attend funerals or weddings or christenings because I don't believe that we are going to be with Jesus etc etc.

PP made a good point about the curriculum - our children sit through hours and years of assemblies on religion.

I get the fear about womens' rights. I do. But your average 25 year old transman who has barriers of their own isn't interested in invading your rights. And they'd be the first to shut down the TRA's, cause they dont help them either.

I follow a young person on tiktok who, believe it or not, managed to take me from a die hard HP/JK fan to understanding why its harmful.

SlightlyGeordieJohn · 29/05/2022 21:48

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RedToothBrush · 29/05/2022 21:49

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:39

I dont disagree, and neither fo the vast majority of trans

People need to actually listen to them and not nutters on Twitter.

Stella is big on twitter.*

She's also an MP.

Also see Layla Moran.*

*Other politicians with sawdust for brains from various political parties are available.

Starlee · 29/05/2022 21:51

glamosaurus · 29/05/2022 17:17

Capitalism. Putting children on a lifetime path of medical interventions is where big pharmaceutical giants come in, then you've got the tech giants on board. Before you know it, it's ubiquitous and here we are.

People have been utterly brainwashed.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If that were the case the tories would be fully supportive of trans people

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 21:52

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I told you earlier I wouldn't be engaging further after your disgusting post.

SlightlyGeordieJohn · 29/05/2022 21:53

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Gadzookerykookery · 29/05/2022 21:59

@Highlyquestionablehoumous

It wasn't a joke. She was making a very serious point. Referring to women as 'people who menstruate' isn't funny.

You may need to look up what flippant means.

If JKR wished to be taken seriously, or to model respectful debate and engage with those whom she wished to persuade, then she messed up right royally with that particular tweet.

This does not make her the worst person in the world ever, or deserving in any way of threats or abuse, but it was a very barbed tweet, and goes a long way to explain why so many are distancing themselves from her both publicly and privately.

FoiledByTheInsect · 29/05/2022 22:00

That makes no sense whatsoever. If that were the case the tories would be fully supportive of trans people

The tories are political prostitutes, I think a similar point was made by a pp upthread.

You don't seriously think it's the politicians rather than big business making the decisions, do you?

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 22:01

Gadzookerykookery · 29/05/2022 21:59

@Highlyquestionablehoumous

It wasn't a joke. She was making a very serious point. Referring to women as 'people who menstruate' isn't funny.

You may need to look up what flippant means.

If JKR wished to be taken seriously, or to model respectful debate and engage with those whom she wished to persuade, then she messed up right royally with that particular tweet.

This does not make her the worst person in the world ever, or deserving in any way of threats or abuse, but it was a very barbed tweet, and goes a long way to explain why so many are distancing themselves from her both publicly and privately.

This.

YouSetTheTone · 29/05/2022 22:11

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 20:24

Her tweet about menstruation really hurt the trans communit. Not because of her point but because of how flippant it was about it. Now it didn't hurt you, because you're presumably not trans. BUt she had no reason to write it the way she did.

So it’s not what she said but the way she said it? Isn’t this kind of policing the tone of a woman’s language?

Personally I find a lot of the ‘choke on my lady dick and die in a grease fire’ rhetoric from TRA offensive but the thing I find most offensive is people not giving a shit about how gender ideology affects women.

Allowing men access to women’s spaces/ prizes/ hospital wards/ prisons generally affects the most vulnerable women in society the most. The ones with poorer literacy, the ones who self exclude now from shopping/ swimming etc because their religious beliefs don’t allow them to share these spaces with men, the elderly women and shy teenagers who feel vulnerable, the women who’ve trained for years to be top of their sporting categories, the ones edged out of prizes designed to level the playing field. Now all of THAT I find genuinely offensive.

glamosaurus · 29/05/2022 22:22

@Starlee and others, no it doesn't. Why does everyone online think everything is black and white.

New Labour and Tony& Cherie Blair were as much about private industry and making money as anyone.

It's not as simple as Tories = private industry = supporting capitalism therefore pushing this trans ideology which makes so much money for tech and pharma. What a tribal way of thinking about politics.

Plenty of so-called socialist/liberal or left-leaning politicians support and endorse this ideology which stems from capitalist companies (big pharmaceutical and technological). The narrative has been insidiously pushed online and to appeal to a younger audience who think they are different. The left are not free thinkers.

Ultimately there's a social contagion being driven by forces bigger than 'us' and it's all driven by profit, do you think those pharma companies/surgeons providing double mastectomies to cut out healthy breast tissue in young (mostly troubled) females are doing it because they care about "gender stereotypes" "being born in the wrong body (not possible)" or "dysphoria"? Of course they don't care about that, they're getting rich on the back of it.

JayAlfredPrufrock · 29/05/2022 22:23

I remember someone thinking the ‘I’m on’ button was to signify you were having your period.

Heaven forbid a trans person might be triggered. 😂

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 22:25

YouSetTheTone · 29/05/2022 22:11

So it’s not what she said but the way she said it? Isn’t this kind of policing the tone of a woman’s language?

Personally I find a lot of the ‘choke on my lady dick and die in a grease fire’ rhetoric from TRA offensive but the thing I find most offensive is people not giving a shit about how gender ideology affects women.

Allowing men access to women’s spaces/ prizes/ hospital wards/ prisons generally affects the most vulnerable women in society the most. The ones with poorer literacy, the ones who self exclude now from shopping/ swimming etc because their religious beliefs don’t allow them to share these spaces with men, the elderly women and shy teenagers who feel vulnerable, the women who’ve trained for years to be top of their sporting categories, the ones edged out of prizes designed to level the playing field. Now all of THAT I find genuinely offensive.

Why does the sex matter? I'd feel the same if a man said it. I hate this "silencing woman" implication.

Again, I agree with you on your bottom paragraph.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 22:35

Gadzookerykookery · 29/05/2022 21:59

@Highlyquestionablehoumous

It wasn't a joke. She was making a very serious point. Referring to women as 'people who menstruate' isn't funny.

You may need to look up what flippant means.

If JKR wished to be taken seriously, or to model respectful debate and engage with those whom she wished to persuade, then she messed up right royally with that particular tweet.

This does not make her the worst person in the world ever, or deserving in any way of threats or abuse, but it was a very barbed tweet, and goes a long way to explain why so many are distancing themselves from her both publicly and privately.

Please.

You know as well as I do that the problem with that initial tweet was not that it was too 'flippant'.

It was that it dared to question the ideology at all.

And that it wasn't immediately followed up with the apologetic 'I'm so sorry for causing upset, I promise to do better and educate myself' tweet that everyone was expecting.

We all know that anything other than complete capitulation is unacceptable. Nothing else would ever have been good enough from JKR, so your 'she only got shit because she was too flippant' line just doesn't wash I'm afraid.

Highlyquestionablehoumous · 29/05/2022 22:37

I remember someone thinking the ‘I’m on’ button was to signify you were having your period.

😂

YouSetTheTone · 29/05/2022 22:38

minutesturntohours · 29/05/2022 22:25

Why does the sex matter? I'd feel the same if a man said it. I hate this "silencing woman" implication.

Again, I agree with you on your bottom paragraph.

It matters because 9 times out of 10 it’s women who are abused and ‘cancelled’ for their beliefs and opinions. Women are the oppressed sex because they are more vulnerable due to their biology. When women ‘step out of line’ the consequences are normally far harsher. It seemed to me that you can see that reflected here - you’re condemning JKR for her ‘tone’ now, and not for her actual point.

Ricky Gervais is getting a hard time yes, but is he being sent disgusting rape threats? If he goes out for lunch with some male friends who feel the same way as him will it make front page news?

Artichokeleaves · 29/05/2022 22:39

It hurt feelings - yes, a lot of female feelings have been radically affected too, not least by the death threats and rape threats and being excluded from rape crisis centres and refuges. No one cares.

So either feelings matter - full stop, in which case the TQ+ politics and community needs to start making clear that female people have equal right to feel safe and unhurt and experience sensitivity and kindness, or you are advocating for a two tier society in which TQ+ people are special and treated in a special way that mere females aren't entitled to. No, not supporting that, it's never going to end well for anyone, is it? I mean it's been bobbins so far.

And this constant expectation that to 'like trans people' would mean never mentioning anything that potentially may upset one - this just silences women from saying what they need to about the impact upon them, their access, their equality, their legal rights. I don't care about your lovely friend and how wonderful they are - I have lovely trans friends too, and I also have lovely friends who can no longer use spaces or resources they need because they have been excluded from anything so that male TQ+ people may choose the provision that best suits their sense of self. This is really not ok unless you have a deeply held belief that females are lesser humans than TQ+ ones.

Women have been forced to the discourtesy of getting blunter and blunter because no one is listening and to say a word causes accusations of 'you don't like trans people' (or you wouldn't have needs or care about anyone else who has needs that conflict with removing their provisions and access). Seriously? It's been made one or the other. Women's language is being removed and if they argue back it's 'hate'. It's 'anti trans'. And yet women when forced to get blunt and say a clear no and be clear about the reality that however distressing it may be to a TQ+ person biology does not change and females need to be able to say so and have this recognised - get told how horrible they're being for not shutting up, putting up and revolving their lives around the male people with these special needs.

And you're startled this has caused resentment? Most of us here spent years being very 'kind' until we realised, there was never going to be any reciprocation. Just endless scolding and shaming and male-centrism.

There's a few women I'd dearly love to introduce Emma Watson to and open her very privileged eyes to who she is causing harm to every time she insists that feminism means excluding some vulnerable females from society to be nice to male born people. These are facts. They are not ok. I will not pretend otherwise.

JayAlfredPrufrock · 29/05/2022 23:01

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HebeMumsnet · 29/05/2022 23:05

Evening, everyone. We've had a fair few reports on this thread. We're going to close it overnight to give us a chance to go through it all properly and will reopen it to new posts again in the morning.

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