To ask how we stop women ending up with bullshitter/shirker/less than mediocre men?

[BigOldBlobber]

Okay, so I'm not wanting to start a fight, or a finger pointing exercise. And I am most certainly not talking about women who find themselves in abusive or violent homes. I am well aware of the vulnerability some women have, and cycles of abuse.

But, how do we stop future women putting up with mediocrity or really, less than mediocrity from men?! Is it changing expectations of men? Culture change? Gender/sex based role shift?

I have a toddler DD and it really worries me to think that in the future she may end up trapped with a shitty partner.

(This is based off the many threads where women have had children with men, to find out that they have actually become tethered to a man-child, shirker etc)

Lead by example Brigade here.
It wasn't until I had my DD and she turned one I was in a sexless and loveless relationship, deep in the pits of PND when I realised;
'Wtf am I teaching her by staying in this?!'

Exh is a brilliant father to dd and we co parent now, however, there is not a chance in hell i would ever have wanted her to think what me and her father had was what a relationship should have been like. He was very very short fused, horrible when it came to birthdays/anniversaries, romance died the moment I was pregnant because he was obsessed with becoming a dad and he also became a real nightmare the moment he had his first drink.

Marriage, financial ties and of course a child together meant this looked like I couldn't leave. But I did. Because I had to. Because I couldn't possible let grow up seeing this volatile and toxic relationship. Never been happier (or poorer, but I don't care)

If I didnt have DD I probably wouldn't have realised any of this.

Show the next generation what a loving and respectful relationship is.

@CounsellorTroi

This may not be a popular view on here but I think women who have had good, loving and respectful fathers are much less likely to end up with shitty/mediocre men.
^^^
This.
Also teaching self esteem and to really taking the time to get to know someone before rushing into a relationship.

Work- be financially independent. This is number one in my opinion. Never rely on a man.
Pension- have your own pension. Contribute early. Start as early as you can.
Save, save save for a rainy day. Never disclose your financial situation to a man (boyfriend).
Ring-fence assets.
Do not allow a cocklodger to move in.
Those of us who have sons, show them what a loving kind relationship is - lead by example.
Education Education Education.
Have healthy relationships.
Don't bring multiple partners into children's lives.

This probably won't go down well but women have to start taking responsibility for their decisions. We are not weak little victims. If he is an arsehole then leave. If you move him in after 5 minutes then wonder where the nice helpful guy went, well what did you expect moving a stranger in? He cheats and you stick around and he cheats again? No surprises.

Men will treat you how you allow them to.

I see my friend go from one disaster to another. Kids suffering. But I'm nit allowed to question her choices because she's a grown woman and has been a victim? She has been with a man for years that made her kids life hell. Is that her fault?

Most women will meet a dodgy guy at some point. It's what they choose to do about it that matters. Look at all these women who idolise johny depop who calls women whores and c*s. Women need to raise the bar.

Hilarious how many people think that blaming women for how men treat them is an “unpopular opinion” rather than the bog standard response on Mumsnet and in society in general.

Marry a woman. Best thing I ever did 😂

I get what you're saying, I do. But it really isn't true. Speaking from experience.

I think you nailed it.

I was raised in house where I was resented, neglected and verbally abused. It took me a depressingly long time to figure out what was actually normal ( rather than what 'felt' normal. )

This probably won't go down well but women have to start taking responsibility for their decisions

This makes me seethe. I lost friends because they judged my 'choices' . The same friends who are all #bekind

Everyone ( I repeat Every. One) has a battleground. It may be food, relationships with friends, career, romantic relationships- but it is all the same thing- our sense of self worth.

Some people have excellent tools because they were raised with love and kindness. Others flounder because we don't know what it feels like to be valued and treated with love. And these men are clever- they aren't assholes/ liars all the time. They create an illusion. People like us want the illusion to be real, so so badly.

So, people who judge their friends might want to look at where their own weaknesses are, and ask if they want to be judged BY THEIR FRIENDS for the amount they eat/ drink, for being too scared to enter a career you want or whatever their battlefield is

If your friends can’t tell you when you are making a mistake then who can?

I’ve told a friend before that they are drinking too much, and another that they are in a bad relationship that was doing them harm.

It’s what good friends do.

My point was I can't judge and don't say these things. Instead I am there to listen to all the shit they go through. But at what point xan you say to a woman what if you made different choices? You can't. You have to keep quiet and support . And on and on it goes...

Sorry you went through that (hugs). Exactly this though. What my friend thinks is normal isn't and it seems her recognising this isn't allowed by telling her she's making bad decisions. It doesn't help her

Agree wholeheartedly

@spotcheck

And these men are clever- they aren't assholes/ liars all the time. They create an illusion. People like us want the illusion to be real, so so badly.

But the red flag signs are usually there if you look for them. Trouble is too many people generally don't question things, whether it's choosing a partner, buying a car/house, or whatever. Far too many people just accept things at face value. Yes, it's not nice to by cynical and questionning about everything, but it's pretty much essential to avoid being let down, in whatever way.

When it comes to partners, I've always taken things very slow. I cringe when I've seen friends "fall in luuuuuuvv" instantly and virtually move in with a guy within the week - 9 times out of 10 it leads to misery. People need to think with their head and not their heart. I've ditched boyfriends after I've seen how they behave after a few drinks. I ditched one who became really nasty and aggressive when someone else accidentally drank out his glass. The "true colours" are always there just beneath the surface and we should stop falling for their apologies.

We also need a culture change away from the "we need a man" mentality. Young girls are conditioned into obsessing about hair and make up and told how beautiful they are. Then you get pop music, a lot of which is about waiting for a man, a man choosing you, taking a man back, etc. I cringe when you see those old films where the woman are sat at the edge of a dancefloor just waiting to be chosen by a man for a dance and accepting any man who comes to choose them - in a lot of ways, we've really not moved on. School is dominated by girls discussing boyfriends, pressure on those without boyfriends to get one, etc.

We need a new narrative that it really is OK to be single, it really is OK to prefer girls rather than boys, etc etc. I sometimes think it's become easier for a teen girl to say she's gay rather than have the pressure of explaining why she's not got a boyfriend.

When it comes to partners, I've always taken things very slow. I cringe when I've seen friends "fall in luuuuuuvv" instantly and virtually move in with a guy within the week - 9 times out of 10 it leads to misery. People need to think with their head and not their heart.

or with other parts of their body. Women can do this as much as men.

I think women have for a long time been conditioned to put their needs last and to believe that having a relationship and to maintain it at all cost should be their main goal.

I realise I was putting up with dodgy men because I had low self-esteem, was raised by an abusive father and did not know what a healthy relationship should be like. I did not respect myself and my body.

I think we need to both change society as a whole so that is it less misogynist but also work on ourselves to raise our expectations when it comes to men.

There is also something about the need for parents to raise boys to be respectful of women. There is a recent thread which I found really disturbing where a mum is trying to minimise her adult son verbally and physically assaulting her daughter as ''out of character''...as long as we give men excuses like that and allow them to treat us poorly this cycle will continue.

We need a new narrative that it really is OK to be single, it really is OK to prefer girls rather than boys, etc etc. I sometimes think it's become easier for a teen girl to say she's gay rather than have the pressure of explaining why she's not got a boyfriend.

Also that it is really ok not to want children. Or at least to be really really choosy about the father. That not having children is not necessarily worse than having them with a shit father.

Of course we need to do that too for the longer term. But, today, here and now, we can't change today's mens' behaviour. All we can do today, is be more choosy and careful ourselves.

We have to deal with the practicality of our actions/choices today. We have the power to do that now with who we choose as partners and ensure our own independence/protection so we can walk away if necessary. It's all we can do short term.

As long as today's feckless blokes can still get replacement girlfriends/partners, they'll not change their behaviour. If they start being told to bugger off when they start behaving badly, they may start to get the message but it will take a lot of time.

Changing mens' behaviour is for the longer term. Yes, we can educate and nurture our sons to respect women and our daughters not to put up with bullshit, but that's long term.

So two pronged attack. Protect ourselves short term and educate for the long term.

It’s so much broader than just an individual couple. It’s all of society’s attitudes. If you visit a friend do you judge her husband if the floor needs a hoover? If your brother doesn’t buy presents for his niece and nephew do you wonder why your sil didn’t step up?
women take over and cover up for their partners not doing their fair share because if they don’t other women judge the woman in the relationship.

Have you ever seen an advert for air freshener where it’s a man screwing up his nose in disgust? Of course not!

Make sure you never vote for a party led by one. Boris Johnson is the perfect role model for the kind of man the OP describes.

It would be the end of humanity due to lack of alternatives. Maybe not such a bad thing.

I have the most wonderful dh now but having been in this situation and seeing the cycle perpetuated among the young women I see through my work and their poor mother’s who often feel helpless I often wonder this. I do just wish I could give them the knowledge and self respect I now have.
I think we just need to guide our young people the best we can and continue having the support that exists in this country. The benefits and housing system meant I was able to get out, it is just a shame it’s being ever more eroded. I see it therefore as all the more important to try and encourage my girls to pass their test, get some of their own security etc before embarking on having children and women need to better recognise the benefits of marriage/civil partnerships. However some people take this to the extreme and insist on working in jobs stressing them out just in case they end up single and then they end up single as all their effort is on the defensive. Children growing up with positive role models would also help but among friends and even reading MNs can see why peoples relationships don’t work out due to the attitude of both men and women. The value and effort of unpaid care work is completely undervalued and not acknowledged which probably doesn’t help in most relationships. It takes 2 to tango and make a relationship work however

Absolutely, half the time it’s other women putting this pressure on

A lot of women are attracted to shit men because they have charm or are handsome or exciting. Then he turns out to be a bad partner. Or they get tired of the bad boys and settle for some mediocre man who they never really liked to begin with because they wanted kids.