To ask how we stop women ending up with bullshitter/shirker/less than mediocre men?

[BigOldBlobber]

Okay, so I'm not wanting to start a fight, or a finger pointing exercise. And I am most certainly not talking about women who find themselves in abusive or violent homes. I am well aware of the vulnerability some women have, and cycles of abuse.

But, how do we stop future women putting up with mediocrity or really, less than mediocrity from men?! Is it changing expectations of men? Culture change? Gender/sex based role shift?

I have a toddler DD and it really worries me to think that in the future she may end up trapped with a shitty partner.

(This is based off the many threads where women have had children with men, to find out that they have actually become tethered to a man-child, shirker etc)

We could start by telling the truth and to be unapologetic about it. We could stop excusing bad behavior from boys and men. We could stop with the double standards of punishing girls for behavior we encourage in boys.

We could start with zero tolerance. We could start with this forum and kick out all the men's "rights" activists (MRA) and their handmaidens who make comment after comment in the nature of "But if the roles were reveerrrrrssseedddd!" in repsonse to men being shitty and even when a man is violent.

I am so sick and tired of seeing MRA's derailing discussions on here. They don't belong here. Let them go back to the incel darkweb. Let them go back to the rocks under which they belong.

Zero tolerance!

CounsellorTroi
This may not be a popular view on here but I think women who have had good, loving and respectful fathers are much less likely to end up with shitty/mediocre men.

Whether it's popular or not, I totally agree with you.

My father was a loving, gentle and kind man and despite working six days a week, did his share of housework and child rearing in the late 1940s/50s. When I started dating, I set my relationship bar by him. It soon became obvious I would need to lower it somewhat if I was to have any relationships but the basics remained with me which meant I didn't accept bullshit from any man and living together meant doing 50/50 to maintain the home from day one.

The saddest thing I read on here are threads by women for whom any man, however rotten is better than none.

Lazy reply but what this poster says. Lead by example, etc

Educate both sexes about it in schools? What makes a healthy relationship is taught in Dutch schools, as is respect for women.

Lazy reply from me

Model by example if you can.

teach your daughters to have a career before having children so that they always have the option to walk away.

some find this old-fashioned, but emphasize the value of the dating-engagement-marriage process before having children. It provides an opportunity to evaluate your potential co-parent and gives you many steps to walk away before you are tied to a person forever by a shared child.

It really does strike me as to how much women put up with and how many women are male apologists. As a young (ish) woman I've honestly been called a 'ball buster' by colleagues for expecting equal from DH.

@BreakinbadBreakineven My MIL is a bit like this. SIL's DH often goes on nights out, leaves her to do all of the bedtimes and mornings despite her working evenings 5 days a week. She's got such a shit deal, works 7-12 evenings and does childcare in day as her DH doesn't want their son at nursery. So she effectively works 6am to midnight 5 days a week. She sometimes seems resentful that my DH (her DB) does so much in our home as she wants solidarity with me but I cannot bring myself to give it as I don't agree!

@CaptSkippy Yes, I do often see worrying responses where people explain away shitty behaviour from men or behave like 'pick me' women.

Why do women have to end up with men?
But if we would like to imagine an "ideal" world in which each woman would end up with a man who is above say the bottom 20% in honesty, conscientious, etc... then there would be no more than 80% of the male heterosexual population meeting those criteria (probably less because the combination of attributes is rarer than the possession of just one attribute), which we would want to pair with 100% of the female heterosexual population. Assuming the numbers of heterosexual men and heterosexual women are approximately equal then we are trying to match (less than) 80% of a number with 100% of the same number. That would imply polygyny.
If we would prefer monogamous (or serially monogamous) pairing and we consider that levels of honesty, conscientiousness etc.. might be equally distributed among the sexes then the problem seems to be a more tractable one of each person finding a person at their own level, though given the dishonesty with which people misrepresent themselves it may take some time for each person to discover another's true value.

AchatAVendre
Educate both sexes about it in schools? What makes a healthy relationship is taught in Dutch schools, as is respect for women.

Completely agree with you.

@Ponderingwindow It would be seen as old fashioned but I honestly agree. Me and DH got together at 15, and he wanted kids around 20. I told him no frigging way until we'd both got a degree/trade, a house and a marriage. His family very much thought I was being dramatic.

Basically this. In a cocklodging nutshell.

I think it does not help matters either that perhaps the majority of women cannot last without a man. It should be a wish not a need. Luckily I prefer single but many women are still hoping for the one and then take somebody on as they cannot hack being on their own. Even if he is mediocre.

@EcoEcoIA I suppose I'm wondering more about heterosexual relationships as those are the ones often complained about on MN, or raised. A lot of women probably would be better off alone rather than paired with men.
Also my pondering doesn't take into account lesbian relationships. I wonder if they face the same amounts of disrespect.

Interesting how many of these posts are about changing girls...

I think expecting our daughters to have good role models, male and female, is right (don't have to be an actual parent).

The socialisation of girls being kind/helpful etc and boys being noisy/cheeky starts ridiculously early - we need to nip this in the bud for both girls and boys. It's completely pointless changing girls' attitudes if we don't change the boys' too - dangerous in fact as then there are more boys (men) who won't get girls (women) and as we saw in Plymouth, this has all kinds of other consequences.

Also, stop telling women to overrule their instincts or to compromise when there's no need. I see it on here time and time again. A woman in the early stages of dating a man just isn't quite feeling it. The things she's not loving might well be red flags, but sometimes they're just things that don't work for her - he calls too often/too seldom/too early/too late, she doesn't like the way he talks about his job, she finds his toes a total turnoff... And yet, time and time again she's told that she should accept it. Why? I never understand this. I'm not saying that relationships have to be perfect but if you're compromising massively right from the start, it doesn't bode well for your long term prospects. My dad once told me that if a relationship is hard from the beginning when things are easy, how on earth will it survive when things genuinely get hard. Advice to live by I say.

There are intrinsic and extrinsic factors. Women need to be brought up to be confident and value themselves.

But equally we need to examine a culture where women are still expected to subjugate their needs to a man because men are important and women are there to prop them up.

But these men don't announce themselves into your life as useless, lazy fuckers. There's a gradual decline over time. And then you think 'but he'll step up when the baby is here because it's his child'. And he doesn't.

I disagree. I think the signs are OFTEN there. But they are ignored or dismissed as "boys will be boys" or because women have been socialised to accept things. It certainly wasn't a surprise to any of us that BIL didn't step up when they had children. I've been to a number of weddings over the years where DH and I have privately wondered.... sure enough, they might still be together but the woman has done all the sacrificing and parenting etc to her greater or lesser detriment...
The families you meet on the playground and who you then aren't surprised when you hear they've split up a few years later.

It's often NOT a surprise. Yes, the truly evil abusive ones who are clever camelons hide it, but the day to day lazy, entitled shits... you can spot them a mile away if you know what to look for.

Make it easier/more acceptable/more represented for women not to have children. Again, won't be a popular view, but in my experience it's motivated by the fact that women want to have kids more than men do, and have a much smaller window in which to do so. I have a number of unhappily married friends and they all say they were running out of time and wanted someone to have kids with, even if he "wasn't perfect".

In some respects, yes, you're fighting biology, but I also believe that there's such a huge social stigma around women being single and childlessness, and it contributes to the fact that women continue to accept men who quite frankly don't deserve to be in a relationship.

@Villagewaspbyke

Lots of women are of the view they need a man because they need someone to pay the bills

Theyre happy enough to rely on them so they dont have to work

Then when they're not happy they're stich with kids and no money

This may not be a popular view on here but I think women who have had good, loving and respectful fathers are much less likely to end up with shitty/mediocre men.

Obviously there are many exceptions (as some PP on this thread) but largely I agree with this.

Also: when I was a child, almost all the Dads I knew were brilliant and involved. I can think of one very strong exception and I always found it so strange going to that friend’s house, that her Dad just sat and watched TV while her Mum did everything. That was really outside the norm (this was in the 90s). There’s no way that I
would’ve put up with a useless DH!

Now I’m a Mum and all of my kids’ friends have really kind, involved Dads. All of my Mum friends have brilliant husbands. I read the threads on here and am pretty shocked tbh. So far outside my sphere of experience.

So I wonder if there are also pockets in society where the deadbeat Dad thing is just way less of an issue and expectations are just higher all round.

@Ponderingwindow
some find this old-fashioned, but emphasize the value of the dating-engagement-marriage process before having children. It provides an opportunity to evaluate your potential co-parent and gives you many steps to walk away before you are tied to a person forever by a shared child.

I really don't agree with this. It is something like my 90 yr old MIL would say. There are plenty relationships I know like what you describe and the men treat their wives like crap. They may seem great before the wedding but change afterwards or when a baby arrives. It is all about looking for the red flags and teaching our daughters how to look for them.

EcoEcoIA makes a very good point. There simply are not going to be enough quality men for all women to find a co-parent and partner. It’s also true that the odds of finding a quality partner aren’t equally distributed.

Women need to become ok with the idea that it’s ok to end up single. If she still wants to have a child, then formal sperm donation arrangements may be a better option than a lackluster co-parent.

We need to bring up girls to have confidence and self-esteem and to learn to say no firmly to awful men. But how? My own dad was a bully and while I got into a few bad relationships early on I somehow had the confidence to walk away - where that came from I do not know. I eventually ended up with 'a good'un' but that was sheer luck.

Yep lead by example. It was the 1970’s and my Mother told me to never rely on a man for money. I also saw her stand up to a group of skinheads who were taunting a woman with special needs when I was about 10, she was not afraid of anything. Both her parents had been in the military and my Grandmother would stand up to anyone.

The only issue we have is people and very often other women are the worst find us difficult because we actually consider our own needs.

I agree with this but think its more to do with having your mother role model healthy behaviours.

I know a lot of women who pick a lazy man child/stay in crap relationships/people please to the point of burn out and depression who have loving and wonderful fathers. I dont know a single one who had a badass for a mother.

My mum is lovely, soft, warm and friendly but she is a strong woman and won't let anyone walk all over her especially any man so my siblings and u have all grown up to have thst expectation. My brothers are good partners and my sister and I are strong women ourselves. All of us have good balance in our relationships, I think because of the example our mother (and father) set us.

In my experience, the women I know who have chosen to be SAHM in a genuine, "I don't want to work and this works more for me" kind of way, are actually pretty happy, as are their partners. It seems that when the've made this decision, jointly, with their partners, a fairly clear "contract" was agreed up front. And it's a contract in which both roles are appreciated. So, the man might be working long hours, earning lots of money etc, and lots of things are done by his wife to facilitate this and to insulate him from any home "stress" but usually it goes both ways - he's happy for her to spend "his" money on home help, luxuries etc. And the men then do plenty with their children on weekends etc. I have friends in this category and having worked in the City, have met many many couples like this.

It's the SAHM who are forced into it due to circumstances and finances and who are then massively financially abused on top of everything else who land up stuck with kids and no money.