To ask how we stop women ending up with bullshitter/shirker/less than mediocre men?

[BigOldBlobber]

Okay, so I'm not wanting to start a fight, or a finger pointing exercise. And I am most certainly not talking about women who find themselves in abusive or violent homes. I am well aware of the vulnerability some women have, and cycles of abuse.

But, how do we stop future women putting up with mediocrity or really, less than mediocrity from men?! Is it changing expectations of men? Culture change? Gender/sex based role shift?

I have a toddler DD and it really worries me to think that in the future she may end up trapped with a shitty partner.

(This is based off the many threads where women have had children with men, to find out that they have actually become tethered to a man-child, shirker etc)

A lot of women are attracted to shit men because they have charm or are handsome or exciting. Then he turns out to be a bad partner. Or they get tired of the bad boys and settle for some mediocre man who they never really liked to begin with because they wanted kids.

A lot of women think they can change men too. They rarely can.

While I do believe that everyone is responsible for their own choices- if holding women accountable for men mistreating them changed anything, this world would be a utopia by now. It doesn’t.

Also it’s funny to see people say that shitty men are “bad boys” and “exciting”. The guy who turned out to be a waste of space on me was anything BUT an “exciting bad boy”.

Sometimes this “women bring it on themselves by choosing wrong” attitude sounds like just another way for people to convince themselves My Nigel Would Never.
And I don’t even think it helps women at all. In fact this kind of attitude can cause women to paper over cracks early on so as to not look like they chose poorly and “failed” at relationships.

@Bedknobbroomsticks

Yes, good friends DO tell friends when they are making a mistake. But also, you can't make someone value themselves. Sometimes life has to teach us, and we have to learn it ourselves.

People KNOW they drink too much/eat too much/ form bad relationships. It isn't going to be brand new, revelatory information when a friend points it out - all it does is make you feel isolated from that friend.

I could have written this about my 20 year old dd.The man she is with now seems very devoted and thoughtful.The thing that worries me is his dm has been married 4 x ( divorces down to badly behaving men) so he has no template for a long lasting forever marriage

That’s not true at all. I’d let myself get really out of shape a few years back and it was only when a friend politely pointed out how far I’d let it go that I realised it was time to do something about it.

Society is always changing but attitudes change more slowly. There may be far fewer overtly racist people but still sadly many racists who've just learnt not to say it aloud.In the same way, a lot of men, and women, say the right things but don't really believe them when it comes to relationships.
Over and over posts on MN show a man who changed after his first DC, he didn't change, he just made all the right noises. Look at a man's actions, not what he says

I agree with the few comments (shame more women don’t see that) who said about supporting women to remain single, and childfree.
Stop shaming women who are single and who don’t have kids.
Women can be perfectly happy and have good lives without ever being involved with a man in a romantic/sexual way and without having kids.

And to add.
Men are never going to change.
No one is raising some magical future better men.
Parent/s have the whole society againts them.
And very, very few people are actually that aware that they are making any changes, nevermind better boys/men.

A lot of posters have mentioned talking about this in schools. My experience as a teacher is you can and should (and I do) but you have to be very, very careful, because parents may feel criticised if students repeat things as home, and teachers are hardly paragons of healthy relationships themselves in some cases. And schools aren't immune from sexism. The gender pay gap in education is pretty bad. Female SLT are often in the pastoral roles, not the strategic ones, when you look carefully.

A lot of this comes down to money. The best thing my Dad did (and he was and is far from a perfect father) was teach my sister and I how to manage money and to give us money to invest when we were young enough for it to make a big difference. As a result, we can leave bad jobs and relationships if we need to.

He has had several female family members in his life who were utterly dependent on males financially and this may have influenced him. I don't know as he won't or can't talk emotions.

A lot of this comes down to money. The best thing my Dad did (and he was and is far from a perfect father) was teach my sister and I how to manage money and to give us money to invest when we were young enough for it to make a big difference. As a result, we can leave bad jobs and relationships if we need to

this. My dad died when I was in primary school. My mum had been wholly reliant on him financially, couldn’t even use a cash machine. I took over a lot of the “male” responsibilities very early on. Made me swear I’d never have children unless I was completely financially independent and able to single parent should I find myself in that situation.

interestingly the only two men I have ever met who completely pulled their weight on the housework side lost their mums in childhood. So they learned to see the housework, cook, and do all that “wifework”.

One is married to a cousin, i remember chatting to her after she had her first baby and mentioning how a cleaner saved my sanity with us both working ft. She replied that oh no she wouldn’t need one, her house stayed clean and tidy fairly easily, it was just a matter of a quick hoover and a wipe round every so often.

while her husband in the kitchen was loading the dishwasher while making a cup of tea, putting a wash on when he went to the loo, picking up something as he walked past…. She just never noticed all the jobs he did as part of daily life.

i thought that was an interesting reflection..

This may not be a popular view on here but I think women who have had good, loving and respectful fathers are much less likely to end up with shitty/mediocre men.

My father died when I was 3 and my brother 11 months. My mum brought us up on her own and we didn’t have much money growing up. I know she went hungry sometimes to ensure we had enough to eat. She only started dating when I went to university so I didn’t have any father figures in my life. Before my husband I had 2 long term relationships, both ended on good terms. All 3 are good men. I personally think it’s because I have an independent, strong mother and that’s why I didn’t end up with shitty mediocre men. I learned from her.

I saw a youngish woman and her boyfriend walking along the street yesterday. He was berating her very loudly, swearing at her, a constant barrage of whiny insults and accusations. She just sulkily traisped by his side listening to it, looking gkum.

It was such a common scene that it didn't really register. Only when I got home did I start thinking about why she couldn't just say tell him to fuck off.

But this is what women and girls learn. Men speak to you however they choose and you listen.

People tend to end up with similar calibre of partners.
Ensure your DD is kind, fair, confident, well educated and has good manners and high expectations of herself and others.
One could ask the same question as OP, in reverse: how to make sure our DSs won't end up with needy, lazy, entitled, grabby women🙄
The answer would be same.

This is absolute bollocks and is pretty much explicitly saying that if a woman is in a bad relationship, it's her fault for not being good enough. This attitude is a huge part of the problem - it's a woman's own fault if she lands up with a man who is lazy, entitled, abusive etc.

It's every woman's own CHOICE for fucks' sake. Or don't you have free will to choose whom to shack up with!?!
Unless a woman is raped and forced to live with her rapist, which is another thing altogether and not discussed on this thread, she has a fucking choice.
By saying she doesn't, dismisses all women as they clearly have no agency.
Take responsibility for your fucking choices.

Are you ok?

Yes, your response seems a little ott. Especially considering the discussion is about why women don't just leave. What is going on that makes this more complicated. And no, it's not.just because women are stupid and deserve what they get.

I doubt my answer will be popular, but I think hookup culture and the fashion of casual dating has a lot to do with this.

@wellhell, how original. 🙄

Do you think their response about victims of abuse was in any way normal or reasonable in tone? They sound unhinged and really, really angry. Again, to people trying to defend abuse victims...

Interesting. It’s certainly a lot easier for men to get free no strings attached casual sex these days.

I remember reading a newspaper agony column about 30 years ago - pre internet dating websites - and a woman had written in saying she wanted to find a decent, attractive, available, reliable man who would be happy with a no strings attached sexual relationship - a FWB, except the term didn’t really exist then. The agony aunt thought this was a tall order - that nice, reliable, single men were usually after something more than no strings sex, and men who wanted no strings sex were unlikely to be decent or reliable.

A never-ending bad economy/housing crisis doesn't help. Women (and men) will put up with more shit from a relationship when being on their own is financially precarious. Social norms of men being expected to pull their weight more than they used to can only fight that stark backdrop so much.

Some will. I'm on my own on minimum wage and I'd rather struggle financially than be in a shit relationship.

I can’t see men changing or being called out.

Girls need to be taught at school that you don’t need a partner in life, you can be happy being single and that some men are not what they seem and what to look out for. (Red flag behaviour). They also need to learn that head rules heart and to not to fall for bullshit “The one or Soulmate” crap.

YIKES