To ask how we stop women ending up with bullshitter/shirker/less than mediocre men?

[BigOldBlobber]

Okay, so I'm not wanting to start a fight, or a finger pointing exercise. And I am most certainly not talking about women who find themselves in abusive or violent homes. I am well aware of the vulnerability some women have, and cycles of abuse.

But, how do we stop future women putting up with mediocrity or really, less than mediocrity from men?! Is it changing expectations of men? Culture change? Gender/sex based role shift?

I have a toddler DD and it really worries me to think that in the future she may end up trapped with a shitty partner.

(This is based off the many threads where women have had children with men, to find out that they have actually become tethered to a man-child, shirker etc)

Better relationships on tv. That includes between teens and their parents.

More frank discussions between adults and children. Practice senarios and what to say. Discuss the implications of words and actions.

I think you really have to consider what you mean by less than mediocre. Just because someone is a bullshitter or shirker doesn't mean their abusive, not very desirable perhaps but not necessarily abusive. On the other hand a successful hard worker can still be abusive.

If you're looking for a good dad and lifelong companion then maybe the fun party animal isn't the one for you. However from reading on here I suspect many women want the fun guy early on then ditch him either once the kids come or when you want kids then the steady guy to help raise the kids and finally ditch him to enjoy the rest of your life on your own.

No, and I maybe didn’t put it well, I was trying to echo the view above, that what may make a man attractive as a boyfriend in their twenties may be no use at all in a life partner.

I don’t go on and on and on about it but I certainly wasn’t going to protect him and spare his blushes either.

I don't agree. I had a shit husband and I had no idea that anyone who could appear to be so normal could also be so vile. My parents are both amazing.

A lot of truth in this. Cocky arseholes always find a partner, the quiet, shy type often don't.

I agree with your basic point, but of course you can't necessarily trust the quiet, shy types either.

Couldn't have said it better. I think it should be taught in secondary. Expectations, options, financial independence, realities of being a woman, working, having kids. Let's just stop letting young women assume getting married and having kids is what they should be doing and if they do, what a real partnership looks like. Skills for life. A happy one.

Agree 100%

I agree with your basic point, but of course you can't necessarily trust the quiet, shy types either.

You can't but when it comes to romance in particular people with not particularly nice traits succeed the most.The loud, brash, obnoxious extrovert (man or woman) isn't ever going to be single, as an example, assuming they don't want to be.

I don’t think you can really prevent or guard against bad or unscrupulous or lazy/entitled men. There are some obvious red flags but sometimes the most innocuous and respectable men turn out to be arseholes.

The only failsafe strategy a woman can really adopt is to make sure she never becomes financially dependent.

Don’t give up your job, basically.

I've only read to end of page 2 but can't believe that all barr two of the responses are about women and girls changing. I don't disagree but what about all the women raising boys? How about raising boys to be respectful and good role models themselves??

both girls and boys benefit from good role models for this reason.

I agree. I think it comes as a shock sometimes when you realise your partner's 5 and 10 year plans, even subconscious ones, were never the same as yours. For example, I know a man who was flabbergasted when his very career-minded wife presented it as done that she was going to become a SAHM, whereas she was a bit - well of course I am, that's what my mum did, that's what a lot of mothers do, so yes DH you were always signing up to be the breadwinner.

I think it's both. I'm a single mother with a son and I will bring my son up as best I can to be respectful to women, and also model that I don't need a man around the house to be happy.

I absolutely understand why you are making this point but I don't think the women raising boys teach them to be arseholes to women. It's not as if women haven't campaigned for equality or discussed the impact of male violence, sexual objectification and the need for a more equal distribution of domestic work and parenting etc but we're still in a situation where far too many men take women for granted or a actually abuse them.
Women are not to blame for the poor behaviour of men but we can empower women to refuse to settle for a rubbish partner then it will matter less if some men behave like arseholes because women won't bear the brunt of it.

I think you're missing the point. The men don't need to change after all its ok for them, they can be arseholes and still end up with the partner and children, why would they change. If the did change then they may not end up in the relationship as that's the type of men so many choose to be with.

He would probably benefit though from a positive male role model.

It’s a real turnaround really from how it works through people’s teens and twenties, when it’s more often women who can act how they want and still not need to worry about being single.

Building self esteem. I was never told not to accept xyz behaviour from men but naturally grew up with a personality where I wouldn't do so because I hold myself in high regard. For men as well, men who grow up secure likely won't display as many of the toxic masculine traits that so often spring from a complex of inadequacy.

When you have parents who treat you with respect, love you, care for you, provide security, respect your boundaries, demonstrating a healthy relationship - then they learn that is what relationships are about.

Anything disrespectful and abusive with a potential partner, they'd be more likely to pick up on sooner as something you don't recognise as being 'okay' in a relationship, and are more prepared to leave a toxic relationship. Or perhaps not get into one at all.

Treat your kids the opposite - don't provide safety and security, disrespect them, don't show them that interest etc, then they will attract relationships that are similar because that's the most familiar to them.

In terms of the person who is toxic - they're also practicing what they know and how to treat people etc.

@SilkBlouse - you and your mum sounds great!

My dd has said seeing me being on my own has shown her you don't have to have a partner and she'll not settle for below her standards.

May be controversial, but I think it's important to highlight to girls that men can be as capable as women at things like housework, so that they don't settle for a man who won't.

Growing up I often heard older female relatives complaining about their lazy husbands, only for the others to reply "not surprising, men never see mess!" or "he babysits every Thursday? That's more than most men would do!" This definitely contributed to me thinking that all men expect to be waited on. And if they're all like that, then why reject a lazy fucker boyfriend if the next one will be just the same?

Raise your sons not to be like that. It’s not about the women, the problem is with the boys who are indulged, the teenagers who aren’t under control, and the men who have never learned to take any responsibility. Work on the boys.