To ask how we stop women ending up with bullshitter/shirker/less than mediocre men?

[BigOldBlobber]

Okay, so I'm not wanting to start a fight, or a finger pointing exercise. And I am most certainly not talking about women who find themselves in abusive or violent homes. I am well aware of the vulnerability some women have, and cycles of abuse.

But, how do we stop future women putting up with mediocrity or really, less than mediocrity from men?! Is it changing expectations of men? Culture change? Gender/sex based role shift?

I have a toddler DD and it really worries me to think that in the future she may end up trapped with a shitty partner.

(This is based off the many threads where women have had children with men, to find out that they have actually become tethered to a man-child, shirker etc)

Absolutely. It's up to women who they pick in a partner.

If they're picking bad men they need to do a lot of self analysis of why they're attracted to dead beats or manipulated by them. I'd say the same about men who pick bad women.

Like attracts like.

I have sons - I talk to them about being in good relationships, how to be a good partner and also expect your partner to treat you well. My expectations on them when they are adults is to do their share.

By normalising - and teaching girls - that it is perfectly acceptable not to be in a relationship.

It's catch 22 though because having a strong father figure is important for a child to grow into a mature adult and then become a good partner themselves.

It’s very difficult to weed out the bad men. Usually because they’re not bad for the first several years when little is expected of them. They need to do their own laundry and a share of housework, nothing major, nothing they wouldn’t be doing if they lived alone.

The problem arises when children come along and suddenly the demands are huge. Quit your hobbies and regular nights out to stay at home and do your share of putting to bed. Walk miles round the streets with a pram. Do more than your share of cooking and cleaning because mum is trapped under a baby. Get up during the night when the kids wake up. Get up at 5am because the kids are up. Wipe faces and bums. Do tons of extra laundry including shitty clothes and bedding that has been puked on. Play with the same toys over and over for hours on end. Deal with screaming and crying that goes on for months - years - on end. By the time you find out he’s a bad man who isn’t going to do his share, you have kids and it’s too late.

I quoted the wrong post here but you're right. Women are often desperate to have children/a family and then will pick Mr Average during their main fertile years.

Print out Mumsnet threads and make a book.

Fuck knows, but this is the best place to see what utterly useless creatures some women see fit to share a home with.

Teach daughters and sons how to leave poor relationships and that this is something to be proud of not ashamed of. Teach them self worth and that no matter what mistakes they make in relationships they can start over and you will be there to support them. People of both genders end up in crap relationships and stay, this is what needs to change.

also, teach your daughters and sons to never be financially beholden to anyone or to lose their identity to them, this will mean that they can leave a bad situation when they want to.

Yep. Not much you can do about those who'll pick up whatever is on offer because having the kids is more important than who the father of them is. The friends I mentioned are smart, strong women with great starts in life, who got all the right messages, and in theory there was no reason why they should be where they are - except that they prioritised having kids over everything else. That's their right, and probably quite difficult to argue with.

But I do think there are women who are socialised into having kids rather than making an active choice, and I'd like to see more that represents childlessness in a positive way, and helps to reassure people that that's a perfectly happy way of life for many.

Different perspective here, what if the woman earns way more than the DH who works PT? Woman pays majority of the bills/ child costs, but DH cooks/cleans/ childcare. She does life admin because he doesn’t have the attention to detail and she is controlling.

On paper he might look like a cocklodger, but maybe that’s their deal.

He is lucky, but she gets to do what she wants. There is no magic formula for splitting the ‘work’ of running a household/bringing up a family. But might not last when kids no longer need him and balance goes out of kilter.

The truth is women tend to care more about more shit than men….

• Home decor (he doesn’t care about nice kitchens and cushions)
• posh meals out (he’s happy with a burger)
• planning 5* holidays (he just wants a beer in the sun)
• cleaning spotlessly (he does an ok job, woman re-does it)
• varied activities for the kids
• interest in parenting theory (he feels his way through it)

Men and women are different. Roles have been reversed and it can be confusing. I think a lot of men don’t really care as much about the things women do, so they don’t put as much effort in.

Also I don’t know many couples which fit the ideal of earning similar incomes and splitting family ‘work’ out equally. It’s unrealistic.

I think the key is balance and each bringing a similar effort to the table.

@Confuseddotcombo

Men and women are different but there's no biological reason for women to care about cushions

Society tells women they should

Fuck knows why though.

Absolutely this.

Hmm well I know lots of couples where the husband likes a nice house, holidays, social life and well brought up DC just as much as the wife does

but the DH expects it to all just happen somehow on minimal effort from him

it’s not that the DH has lower standards for these things, just doesn’t see them as his problem to make them happen

Women are unhappy because of shitty men and your solution is to scare these women into relationship with these shitty men by saying they will be unhappy unless they don't.

Under the circumstances, I've been shokingly nice.

I was raised in a culture where women are second rate to men and this idea was enforced by my parents. They were not enlightened enough to go against the grain as some of my friends' parents were. So I didn't have much self esteem and wasn't respected by my male siblings or parents. So ended up in relationships where

I think that's the difference though. A lot of men don't give a fuck about what society expects, they do what they want. The decline of the church/nuclear family in our culture has only accelerated that.

Perhaps men are more individual/women are more collective (hunter/gatherer etc).

I was raised in a culture where women are second rate to men and this idea was enforced by my parents. They were not enlightened enough to go against the grain as some of my friends' parents were. So I didn't have much self esteem and wasn't respected by my male siblings or parents. So ended up in relationships where I wasn't treated with respect because I didn't recognise what that behaviour looked like. It becomes a vicious cycle because I worry we're not modelling a healthy relationship a home for DD.

The biggest difference is that I do talk to DD a lot about self respect and work hard on her confidence and making sure she understands what qualities to look for in a partner. The other big difference (as other posters have pointed out) is that if DD does make a mistake, I'll always be there to have her back no matter what. I've not been able to walk away from mine as in my culture it would bring too much shame on my family and my family aren't supportive of us separating. I can't face dealing with a separation and the issues of co-parenting as well as the fallout from my own family.

With age, I look back and see why I've made the decisions I did in terms of relationships. I'm using this to hopefully teach DD to make wiser choices. If she doesn't, she fully knows she can walk away and I'll be there for her.

I think your right, it's modelling.

Growing up with a good relationship to model is important.

It's not just that though.

I was this woman. There was nothing wrong with me. I supported myself and was a nice person living on my own and working.

So why did I think an absolute waste of oxygen was a good partner for almost a decade?

I think it's because I, and others, have no inclination to actually seek out a decent life partner. It's all 'I don't need a man and I'm just going to have fun' type of narrative.

For the most part women want families and a good partner, so why is this not a priority?

Did your mother ever say anything to you akin to 'find a decent man and settle down'?

Did your parents ever speak to you about what to look for in a good partner? How to be a good partner? How to work with a man on each other's strengths to form the basis of a family?

If not, I do believe this a big part of the problem. Pairing up is not seen as a priority when in reality it is maybe the thing that has the biggest impact on our lives - in fact I will go out on a limb and say it is the thing that has the biggest impact on our lives; it affects our financial stability, mental health, parenting, ability to become a parent, career, and happiness.

@CounsellorTroi I don't agree with what you've said... my dad was an amazing man and fantastic father. I've floundered in relationships with awful men as I'd assumed they'd all be like my dad. They were not.

In my own case it was due to poor role models. I honestly thought it was normal and was just how it was. Pretty much everyone I knew was in similarly rubbish relationships.

I decided though, that I'd rather be alone than stick with it so I got out. I did eventually meet someone else who is a world away from all that and it's been a huge revelation that decent men even existed.

I'm sure, if I hadn't seen women just 'putting up with it', I'd have known there were better options out there

I think about this a lot. I have a 5yo DD and 3yo and 1yo DSs. Because DD is the oldest it’s sooooo easy to fall into the habit of making her the “responsible one”, even though she’s still really young. I’m trying to make a very conscious effort to place the same caring & cleaning demands on my 3yo DS as on her, even though it takes more work sometimes given his age.

So: if the baby’s nose is running, I try to ask DS first for a tissue. He needs to clean up his toys like his sister, clear his dinner plate like his sister, and sweep and vacuum the floor every now and then (it helps that he loves those tasks!). I’m trying to teach him from as young as possible to be competent around the home, so that I’m hoping he’ll be a natural at it when he has a partner.

I’m also trying to teach him to NOTICE what needs to be done, so that the mental load doesn’t all fall on his eventual partner. E.g., if he’s come down the stairs and left open the baby gate, instead of saying “close the gate”, I’ll say “look around - what have you forgotten to do”.

This may sound crazy with a 3yo but I think it’s really important!

@User135644

Wtf has the church got to do with it?

Men are taught not to care, thats the problem

"I’ll be encouraging my DDs to stay single and have fun!"

And if they do and aren't celibate, they'll get accused of having low self esteem because they aren't withholding sex before they get a commitment. You've only got to look at threads about fuck buddies. According to a lot of posters we all should have good self esteem which will make us aspire to a relationship.

This actually applies to all personal choices you make for yourself: your health, your appearance, your home, your friends, your career. If a man sees that you take care of yourself in all these ways because you value yourself, he will respond to the value you place on yourself

my appearance? Really? I don’t give a fuck about my appearance, does that mean I don’t value myself and a man can treat me like shit?

if anything I think we place too high a value on appearance over everything else.

I agree @Reallyreallyborednow

We should be moving away from the idea that appearance is linked to self respect not enforcing it

Same with linking self respect and sexual partners