To ask how we stop women ending up with bullshitter/shirker/less than mediocre men?

[BigOldBlobber]

Okay, so I'm not wanting to start a fight, or a finger pointing exercise. And I am most certainly not talking about women who find themselves in abusive or violent homes. I am well aware of the vulnerability some women have, and cycles of abuse.

But, how do we stop future women putting up with mediocrity or really, less than mediocrity from men?! Is it changing expectations of men? Culture change? Gender/sex based role shift?

I have a toddler DD and it really worries me to think that in the future she may end up trapped with a shitty partner.

(This is based off the many threads where women have had children with men, to find out that they have actually become tethered to a man-child, shirker etc)

This may not be a popular view on here but I think women who have had good, loving and respectful fathers are much less likely to end up with shitty/mediocre men.

Lead by example, then make it verbally explicit when they are older? Expect the same from your DH / DSs, if you have any?

There is a thread right now about a woman who feels like a failure because she can’t manage a 1 week old and a 2yo at bedtime on her own, while her DH goes off to yoga every night at bedtime. We need to call out such bullshit every time we see it.

I don't know what the answer is but I was pondering this earlier. I'm separating from an abusive partner and now I've seen him for what he is, the sheer amount of men out there that behave just like him is staggering. I thought it was my fault/just him etc. Its sort of comforting to know but horrifying at the same time.

I agree with @CounsellorTroi . Good father figures are required both to model how to behave to boys and to teach girls what sort of traits they should demand of their future partners.

Mothers are responsible too though - if children of either sex observe their mother tolerating a useless partner then they'll grow up to think that behaviour is normal.

Unfortunately though, there's a vicious circle. Girls who grew up with parents in an unequal partnership are more likely to end up in such partnerships themselves and showing that to their own children and so on. I don't think any single intervention is going to help.

(By the way, it of course can go the other way; in some cases it's the man that's the responsible partner and the woman that is lazy, selfish, etc., and that doesn't teach children anything good either).

I had an absolutely amazing father...even moreso as he'd had no role model himself as his dad died in WW2...mid thirties when I was born, he took an active role in raising me including all the grotty stuff like nappies and night waking even though he was also working ungodly hours. I couldn't have wished for a better dad.

Still ended up in an emotionally abusive, controlling marriage though. It has been suggested during counselling that this was more connected to my mother's influence on my life.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the answer is. I think a large proportion of men are very weak, selfish and thoughtless and don't consider the impact of their actions or find ways to justify them to themselves.

Other men standing up and calling them out is probably what it will take, but I suspect we are several generations from that making a significant difference.

Stop selling the dream to young girls that they “need” a man in their lives. 9/10 would be much happier with a cat, kindle, Netflix subscription and a cycling holiday in the Atlas Mountains with their friends!

Yes modelling an equal relationship between parents who both pull their weight helps of course

But I actually think giving your child strong self esteem and a sense of fairness helps most. Also knowing you are there for them and have their back.

These things IMO mean they are less likely to put up with being treated badly or shouldering an unfair share in all sorts of situations (boyfriend, work etc) not just once they have kids.

Lead by example

Dont put up with it in your own relationship.

Teach your dd to be a feminist. Teach her to stand up for herself and to be independent

Teach her that her role in life is not to please and mother men. Teach her that her role is to be an equal

I also had a great dad ( for the era) cleaned, housework 50/50, happy to spend time with me etc ( actually i think hed STILL be a great dad)

my DH has a lot of "issues" and when i met him in my early 20s i didnt know any better. And then i normalised his behaviours. It wasnt until i had my baby that the light was switched on for me.
now i see , clear as day, that hes a dud ( harsh but true) and he's unlikely to ever make me happy.
im still trying to convince him to get assessed for ADHD so at least when hes being a nightmare we BOTH know why , instead of arguing all day long.

for eg: hes locked me and DC in the flat by mistake today. Not the first time and it wont be the last ....

• i also have an ultra feminist ( for the era) DM but shes still ended up as a pensioner , dating a man who makes all the decisions and she's unhappy but continues anyways

I despair also. I was reading an article in the DM earlier (I know, before you all pile on!) about this young guy who has listed his requirements for future potential girlfriend's. These include having a password to her phone, being able to track her location 24/7 and something about deciding her clothes.

What really surprised me was the number of young women (this moron is 22) piling on saying how that is perfectly understandable and shows how much he cares and is a sign he respects his partners! I just saw an inadequate, controlling arsehole

Oh god, I wish I knew the answer to this. Yes to the positive father figure. But these men don't announce themselves into your life as useless, lazy fuckers. There's a gradual decline over time. And then you think 'but he'll step up when the baby is here because it's his child'. And he doesn't. But your children love him and you don't want to blow apart their home. So you end up just getting on with it. And thus you model it for the next generation...

@EatYourVegetables That is the thread that prompted me to make this one. It makes me angry to see those threads and angry for the women involved. I do fully expect my DH to support me. DH didn't do his hobbies for 6 months when we had DD, then started back up at half the rate after that age as it was too much. He supports me to see friends and to do my Masters. We take the gym in turns. Etc etc. but I am often met by comments like 'you've got him trained' and 'aren't you awful!' When I discuss our household roles. Surely it should be the expected rather than a novelty!

@CounsellorTroi Yes it probably does play a large role. My dad has always been around and done equal(but different) roles in the house for me and my Dsis. He always told us to be wary of a man's motives and to make sure we are on the front foot with men. This probably shaped my view but it can't be the full picture as my Dsis has been with abusive men, and just general dickheads.

We pick the best fathers for our children and raise our sons to be more than mediocre. Men don't hatch from eggs.

@Justcallmebebes That does sound depressing and also sounds like the requirements that incels and MRA's have 😣

I feel like this about my dds 😞

Unfortunately, I was in an abusive relationship between 17 and 25. And I still have to see the fucker as my eldest dc is with him

I don't want this for my girls

Women have the power to stop this happening, we can choose not to remain in a relationship with someone if we're not happy.

There's no point trying to change "men" as a group. But we can (as individuals and collectively) drive standards up by not accepting poor relationships. All too often people remain in relationships they are not happy with because it's the easy option. Many people fear change more than unhappiness, or believe that it's better to be in a poor relationship than be single. Which is their right, of course.

Again this wont be popular but some women just ignore the massive red flags right from the beginning. I have a relative like this who time and time again makes very poor choices and when it all goes wrong comes running back to the family. She will defend and defend these twats until the break up and then it all comes out.

We have all had to take a step back now as she does it all the time. Others including me have tried to point out the red flags at the beginning but she wont listen.

She doesnt feel complete without some 'man' beside her. Thank goodness she didnt have a baby with them although a lot do and then they are really stuck.

My youngest DD is 18 and it’s almost as if it’s like an inbuilt ingrained urge she has to fix people and put them right and of course men absolutely love this and lap it up, she’s from a very nice home nobody around her is into drink or drugs but she just can’t help like bringing the stray dogs home. One of them will get her pregnant. I would genuinely love to know what the answer is.

I'm not convinced that there are enough good men to go round to be honest

I think there are lots of complex reasons why women end up with useless men. One of them imo is because some women have the view (whether from society or upbringing) that they need a man and are nothing without one. Hence lots of women put up with all manner of crap because they are too scared to leave

It is their right of course to choose to be in the relationship. What isnt down to them is that they bombard often elderly parents with their issues, move back home perhaps with a baby and no career prospects.

I grew up with a fairly useless father who I only saw sporadically after my mum kicked him out for being abusive to her when I was 7 yrs old.

My own experience is that for girls growing up it’s less about what their father is like and more about what their mother puts up with (or doesn’t). That’s definitely shaped me.

My mum ended an abusive marriage, where my Dad expected my Mum to work full time, do all childcare and housework and life admin while he…just worked. And he wasn’t even nice to her!

She was single for five years and focussed on us kids, her career and her own life.
She decorated our flat herself, drove us off on holidays around the UK alone, studied and worked hard, always had a ‘can do’ attitude. She didn’t need a man.

When she met the man who would eventually become my stepdad, she had a very boundaried relationship with him that suited her needs and her kids needs. They didn’t move into together until after we had left home. They’ve been together 30 years now and she is still incredibly independent and goes out and about doing her own thing. She decided she was never cooking again after years as a single parent making dinner every night. So she doesn’t - my stepdad does!

She taught us (all daughters) to be independent and to really care about ourselves and not put ourselves second to a man’s needs.

I’ve ended up in a really great marriage (20 years and counting) with a man who is an equal life partner. He was always 100% involved in childcare, housework, cooking, life admin. I wouldn’t have married a man who hadn’t committed fully and explicitly to doing so, and I’m not being smug about it…I just could not be arsed to do everything on my own with another capable adult in the house and I’m too short of patience. I would have told him to fuck off years ago if I’d had to be a bloody domestic martyr and I certainly wouldn’t have had more than one child with him.

Actually thinking about it my DM is a HUGE male apologist, despite viewing herself as a feminist. If I complain he leaves everything to me to do she says men don't notice things like we do. If I say he doesn't really bother interacting with DD, men dont really 'get it' and its up to me to show him/pick up the slack. If he shouts at me its don't antagonise him. She thought I ought to be offering him a cuppa and a sit down when he walked in from work rather than thrusting the baby on him and having ten minutes off. She thought I was being mean telling him he had to knock football three times a week on the head now we have a family because we all need our hobbies and time out. When I asked her when I was meant to do my hobbies, she implies that's a thing of the past now I have a child. I honestly think I'd have left sooner if I hadnt had this drip drip drip from someone so influential in my life. He normalised his treatment of me and she backed him up even if it was indirectly.

@Dotjones I agree that women have the ability to leave. However, obviously some women have incredibly hard emotional/child related/financial situations which make leaving trickier.

I don't agree with not trying to change men as a whole though. We need to go grass roots and teach men (and women) when they're boys and girls about sex/relationships/equal child care/respect etc. I know schools have RSE but it is lacking.