To ask how we stop women ending up with bullshitter/shirker/less than mediocre men?

[BigOldBlobber]

Okay, so I'm not wanting to start a fight, or a finger pointing exercise. And I am most certainly not talking about women who find themselves in abusive or violent homes. I am well aware of the vulnerability some women have, and cycles of abuse.

But, how do we stop future women putting up with mediocrity or really, less than mediocrity from men?! Is it changing expectations of men? Culture change? Gender/sex based role shift?

I have a toddler DD and it really worries me to think that in the future she may end up trapped with a shitty partner.

(This is based off the many threads where women have had children with men, to find out that they have actually become tethered to a man-child, shirker etc)

I respectfully disagree.

The answer is for women not to put up wthe bad treatment, disresect, etc just to have a man in your life. Don't accept 'good enough'. That's the start of a slippery slope.

Remember, being on your own, even with children, is always better than being with a rubbish partner.

Here's my theory for what it's worth.

Years ago, people used to live together as a kind of "trial" marriage. To see if they were compatible before they actually got married. Then they got married, or split up.

Nowadays, people live together because, well, I'm not sure really. Mumsnetters seem to be obsessed with living with men and I can only assume that it's for financial reasons. So now, instead of living together for love, people are living together for financial reasons. Maybe some people genuinely can't run a home on one salary.

@delinathe that was me and the cup of tea and now I'm back at work I can categorically say that no matter how hard it gets it is a million times easier than dealing with a toddler on little sleep for often 12 hours. And I get an hour to eat my lunch in peace. IMO now ex DP had already had breaks at work and could bloody give me one when he got in, especially as I know he spends a fair amount of his work day playing fifa mobile . I think my mum views me as lacking resilience as she was apparently happy to do literally all childcare bar my dad swooping in for some playtime once a day. I have had a few chats with her about how these days it isn't as simple as woman-kids and housework, man-earn money and often mothers are pulled between part time work, childcare and usually the lions share of the housework and mental load. She seems to get it a bit more now.

I’m throwing a grenade here but I’ve often thought about the attitudes towards unmarried mothers (living in sin! What would the neighbours think! Don’t dare come home to this house pregnant!) attitudes that were just dying off when I was growing up in 90s Ireland. And I’ve often wondered if there had been the same social stigma against useless men who have abandoned children, or don’t pay child support, what effect that might have had.

I don’t think, as women and as a society, we are able to talk about the importance of gender roles in early childhood. It’s nearly anti feminist to admit that babies need mums differently than dads, and we are so keen (and rightly so) to support and empower women who have to do it by themselves that we underplay the role of fathers.

I’ve lost count of how many books, blogs and articles I’ve consulted over the years to either improve my parenting directly or indirectly (eg learning about autism). DH has read none, and suffers no guilt whatsoever over his parenting. I don’t think it has ever occurred to him that, while he is a good father, he could strive to be a great, or excellent one.

And I’m not keen to encourage him because it’s a short hop, skip and a jump into weird mens sites.

But it worries me that we have these taboo topics still - it’s impossible to have a clear discussion about the benefits of different early childhood care without upsetting everyone. And it all comes back to money - the only way women get close to fair play is to secure access to money.

I had hopes that the internet and social media would revolutionise women’s earning capacity and minimise the maternity disadvantage. Maybe work from home will help.

sorry - that’s a ramble!

Don't know how things could be changed, but I've always thought it seems to be some women only feel 'validated' or whatever if they're with a man, no matter how crap he might be, and don't know that they're better off alone than that.

Clearly you missed the parts where I put "his" money in inverted commas as part of a broader point. Part of which is that both roles are appreciated. That money is not hoarded by the one who goes out to work. And that importantly, excess money is used to make BOTH partners' lives better and/or easier.

Most importantly, you missed the fact that I was highlighting that blaming a woman for being a SAHM and suggesting that when she's then unhappy and stuck with the children with no money is her fault is ridiculous.

When I worked in the City in a very demanding job and DH was a SAHD, I was extremely grateful for the fact that I didn't have to worry about all kinds of things at home. In addition, we paid for one day a week of childcare (in various guises) from before I even went back to work from maternity leave. This gave DH a break and even further facilitated me not feeling completely overwhelmed. On weekends, I was able to enjoy spending time with the DC, with or without DH.

I have a number of friends are SAHM to high earning partners. These men are actively engaged with their families and spend plenty of time with their children. The women have fulfilling lives and are able to spend time and money pursuing their own interests.

The reality is that a conscious decision to go that route is NOT a huge issue. It's when a woman is forced into it by circumstances, expectations or finances that it is.

Low expectations, lack of discernment, low self esteem, desperation.

Some women seem so driven by the biological urge to have kids that they get knocked up by some very sorry specimens.

But I just don’t know why so many women end up in thrall to quite witless men.

Teach daughters they don't need a man to be OK. Being on your own is a valid option.

@Trivester

How do babies need mums differently to dads?

What do you mean by benefits of different early childhood care?

Hmm. Mine suggestions will probably cause an outcry, but I genuinely believe women would be happier if they followed them because men would be better:

Teach girls and women to value themselves highly and act accordingly.

If you convey in your choices that you have value, men will value you.

This actually applies to all personal choices you make for yourself: your health, your appearance, your home, your friends, your career. If a man sees that you take care of yourself in all these ways because you value yourself, he will respond to the value you place on yourself.

Be clear that you value marriage (if you do, and if you do you are more likely to attract men who also value marriage and commitment and who take the role seriously).

Be clear you will not have childern until married (if you want to be a married mother, and if you do you are more likely to attract a man who values the role of husband and father.)

Immediately challenge unacceptable behaviour throughout your relationship, some conflict and assertiveness is necessary to address issues before they become too big.

Be clear throughout your relationship there are red lines you would not tolerate, and that you would always consider being by yourself better than remaining in a relationship in certain circumstances. Convey confidence that you know you could always manage independently if required, and have a plan for this.

Take resposnsibilty for choosing the father of your children. Obviously it's not a perefect science, but do it as carefully as you can, the impact on your childeren is then set in stone and massive. Genetically and as a role model.

Discuss extensively before you marry how you both envisage the family operating; whether you value a traditional split in duties or a spread across family and income generating duties. It's entirely up to you, but agreement and compatability before you marry and have children is essential if you want a man who meets your expectations and who provides the model you want for your children.

If you want to be at home with children (and many women do) ensure you discuss this and marry a man who values this role as equal.

Discuss money, attitudes to and arrangements, looking into the future for when you have a family, in depth, before you marry.

Demonstrate you respect his role and contribution to the family as this will increase those behaviours and send a message to your children that this is what the role of a good husband and father looks like.

Involve other good male roles models in your children's lives as much as you can, make it clear what you respect about these men and men's roles in families and convey to your children they should aspire to be this or marry this.

Teach your daughters to treat themselves with high value.

And repeat.

I had a lovely gentle father but still ended up in a abusive relationship (thankfully was able to get myself out). I think the expectations of men for a lot of women are so so SO low. I remember my former colleagues being amazed that my then boyfriend could cook his own tea! They really see men as incapable and it makes them feel good to have someone depend on them, but if course the further down the line you go, that comes a huge price. One you add kids to the mix these women end up running themselves ragged and they still can’t see the huge imbalance. I really don’t know how to fix it.

Oh yes, the rush to cohabitate. Every time I see a post on here where someone’s 18 or 19 year old is moving in with a boyfriend or even being encouraged to move in with a boyfriend, I just want to scream. A parent can’t stop that from happening, but they should not be encouraging it.

I made this mistake myself as a young adult. I get how it happens, but it makes it so much harder to break up with someone. I was damn lucky I didn’t get pregnant and all it cost me was money to get my freedom.

@Trivester

Encouraging women to be dependent on men is a huge issue.

Choice or not.

God so many typos. Hopefully you get the gist.

There certainly aren't enough good women to go around for the men. so men and women have to compromise on crappy partners.

I do think unfortunately many woman have low standards. There was a thread on here a few weeks ago from a young woman who rightly objected to a horrible comment her new boyfriend made during an intimate moment and the amount of women who fell over themselves to defend and justify his behaviour and accuse her of being harsh and unfair was very depressing.

He then showed his true colours when she dumped him. Those women defending him would have got sucked in and got to see those colours over the months and years because they ignored the initial red flags, and then would wind up posting about their awful DH two children in, saying how he'd changed when the reality was that their initial standards were too low.

Indeed never give up work, pay 50:50 contribute to the mortgage and maintain financial independence. In short don't be dependent upon anyone and only have children if you can afford it.

Some men as well. For them, "being single" is like a disgrace that they have to get rid of asap. Its as if they are scared not to have the status of having a girlfriend.

I had quite a short period of being single quite a few years ago now and I remember the comments I got from a lot of men, not just the stereotype "Why are you single?" but stuff like "No decent woman is single after the age of 30" or "Aren't you being selfish, choosing not to give a man children?". A lot of these comments are meant to make you think you should date the man making them, because being single is so terrible that you must immediately jump into a relationship with the next available one without even thinking about it.

Even worse, a friend who finished with her boyfriend of the time for being a controlling a**e was accused, online, of "depriving him of the right to have children". She wasn't pregnant or anything and it was only a year long relationship.

Thankfully, he still doesn't have children, despite marrying and divorcing another woman.

Women are perfectly capable of raising strong healthy children alone, l was widowed young , my sons have been brought up in a calm and peaceful home around a group of strong women, they are respectful of women, especially the ones raising kids alone as they see first hand what it involves.
It can feel offensive to strong independent women like myself to keep harping on about having a man around, men are not always the best example.
The way forward is to lead by example, and to teach young women to love themselves first, to value and validate themselves without having to find their sense of worth from a man.
Alot of women have low self esteem and poor boundaries, and are fearful of living alone. I have lived on my own now for 9 yrs, and tbh l am one of the happiest people l know. I put the work in, l don't feel as though l am lacking or living half a life, this is the attitude we need to instil.
My sons know l value myself and don't take any crap, we are loving and respectful towards one another, my eldest in in a 4 yr loving relationship, no drama, it's beautiful to see this relationship unfold, his first love.

I think one of the biggest problems is women from the older generation! Both my DM and DMIL think I’m ‘mean’ to DH as I expect a 50/50 split in jobs/childcare etc. In reality, we both work full time and I still carry more of the mental load. If I ever moan about it to them, I get ‘he does more than some men’ (thanks mum!) or ‘DFIL never had to lift a finger’ (thanks MIL!). Jesus Christ, drives me mad! And then DH gets all uppity if I point out things are not fair.

As someone upthread said, I’ll be encouraging my DDs to stay single and have fun! There’s a reason why married men’s life expectancy increases and women’s decreases! And the thing is, DH is not a bad person. He’s just been so conditioned into the crazy, outdated societal view that men are the superior sex, he genuinely can’t see what I have to complain about. If we ever divorced, 50/50 custody would be a hell of a shock for him and a fucking walk in the park for me (except I’d miss the kids!).

I am so sick and tired of seeing MRA's derailing discussions on here. They don't belong here. Let them go back to the incel darkweb. Let them go back to the rocks under which they belong

Agree. And this sort of thing is increasing all the time. I had one have a go at me a few weeks ago for using bad language and saying I didn't deserve a decent man in my life!

I think two of the major problems are the portrayal of relationships in films/tv/books/etc tell us that happy ever after happens after meeting our partner. Some of the behaviour that is explained as romantic in fiction (e.g. keep pestering her to say yes when she keeps saying she doesn't want to date someone) is actually very wrong. It also seems to show that 'happy ever after' only happens once a woman has found a partner.

Secondly we need to change the whole economics of being a woman. From traditionally female roles paying less than traditionally male roles to the premium charged for female versions of products (e.g. toiletries) and the higher expectation of female grooming (e.g. spending money on make-up and hair styling that men generally don't purchase). I know several women in terrible relationships because they can't afford to be single.

That will give us a more level playing field from which we can decide if we want to be in that relationship not just accept it because we need to be in a relationship.

No. 50:50 is not equal once children enter the equation. Having children negatively impacts women’s earning power, even if they are high earners. Any man who expects 50:50 with children in the mix is a man who doesn’t understand the realities of having children. It’s one of the biggest, brightest red flags out there.

This might be unpopular but some of it could also be how sons are raised. I clearly recall as a child having to help mum with housework on a Saturday morning. Where was my brother? Oh, in bed with the Beano and Junior Choice on the radio. He’s 60 this year, barely lifted a finger his whole life.

I think there's a lot of layers to it.

Better pay in "masculine" occupations, or the common older-male age gap often result in putting priority into maintaining the full male income, and the female reducing hours. Bias in the workplace/ education system mean defaulting to mothers caring as first priority and fathers putting their work ethic first. Things like schools automatically phoning mothers first regardless of the actual priority.

Caring roles are established during maternity leave and don't become balanced on RTW.

Women's lives can often change early on in pregnancy. Men's don't change until birth... or too often they don't see why they need to change. Breastfeeding can interfere with establishing equal habits.

Changes in household chores/ organisation benefit "man-jobs". "Women's-jobs" such as laundry got easier, but we ended up with more, cheaper clothes and cleaner standards and didn't really benefit from the saving. Men ended up spending less time maintaining the car or outsourcing DIY. Smaller, low maintainence gardens take little effort to maintain. Many men spend less time doing manual jobs than their dads/ granddads. Families still need feeding 3x per day.

There are too many people too afraid to live independently and coast along in poor relationships that limp along.

Taking time "courting", getting married and having babies is certainly not foolproof, especially if involving abusive men playing the long game, but being patient and knowing your standards/ boundaries improves your chances of weeding out lazy cocklodger types when the novelty wears off. Try and make sure he really wants children (again, not foolproof)

Women wanting to be kind, or fix people. Old stereotypes about women "nagging". Poor role modelling. A residual stigma of being a single mum. Value of paid work over time caring; easy to hide behind paid work.

The causes go right through society. A lot of women have pretty huge mysogenistic blindspots or have to unpick growing up with poor rolemodels. As a class, men have little incentive to change when they can have it all without doing it all.1

I have sons. I'm a SAHM. I do involve them in household tasks and encourage independence. I try to sell it as teamwork in a family unit and the value of different roles tasks contributing to family life. (SAHM because of lack of appropriate childcare for a DC with SNs and the value of mine and DH's occupations)