To ask how we stop women ending up with bullshitter/shirker/less than mediocre men?

[BigOldBlobber]

Okay, so I'm not wanting to start a fight, or a finger pointing exercise. And I am most certainly not talking about women who find themselves in abusive or violent homes. I am well aware of the vulnerability some women have, and cycles of abuse.

But, how do we stop future women putting up with mediocrity or really, less than mediocrity from men?! Is it changing expectations of men? Culture change? Gender/sex based role shift?

I have a toddler DD and it really worries me to think that in the future she may end up trapped with a shitty partner.

(This is based off the many threads where women have had children with men, to find out that they have actually become tethered to a man-child, shirker etc)

There are only so many men available. There are only so many women.

Either a significant proportion of each sex will spend their lives single. Or a lot of women will end up with shit men and a lot of men will end up with shit women.

It always makes me laugh when men get 50-50 custody or whatever you want to calling of their children and they still expect the female to do all of the mental load often they will return the children with a bag full of washing for her to do.

I doubt it’s any different if you’re still married to them they just bother you for sex as well.

Don't you see that your DC will be better off having parents who have separated than living under the same roof as arguing and his incompetence? Whether he has ADHD or not (I do) this is a toxic dynamic that it's unfair to expose the kids to.

And it's exactly the dynamic that teaches yet another generation that it's ok for dads to be shit and selfish, that it's a mums job to stay in a relationship with the father of their kids even if they're unhappy and it's an unhealthy environment.

The longer you stay the more likely it is your DC will replicate this relationship as adults. Could you live with that? You want more for them surely? To be happy and be in a loving, equal relationship?

Parenting! Teach them properly as they get older and correct their behaviours.

All this 'stay single, you don't need a man', rhetoric is half of the problem for young women today. It's so naive.

Beacuse in reality most women do want children, they have a limited biological window for this, most heterosexual women do want a man in their life and enjoy the partnership of a loving male/ female relationship, most women with childern do want security and commitment for their children, most women don't want to bring up children on their own and want another adult they love to share the highs and struggles of being a parent.

Young women are being sold a lie with the 'just get a cat and go on adventure holidays on your own forever. You Go Girl' lines.

Leading to many young women not taking men seriously, not placing value on the relastionships they have, and then finding themsleves in their 30s and desperate for a baby with 'child man boyfriend' who sees no reason to commit to her. And they are ending up not married, not legally protected, not backpacking at 37 like their auntie said they should, but instead either working all hours to bring up kids on their own because the dickhead of a boyfriend/father doesn't see why he has to do much and as the baby is now here what's she going to do? Or sad and lonely wondering if they might meet someone in time to have a family as she really wants.

None of this is compulsory obviously, and not having kids and backpacking into your 60s is a valid choice, but in reality it is not what most women want.

Young women are being given naive advive which ignores some evolutionary realities and it's leading to some really poor outcomes for them.

Yes, there will be 2875 individual stories now that disprove this, as many people's experiences will be different but on balance there are some clear indicators of what humans seek.
MN Relationship threads being a good one.

Bullet proof self esteem is what women need. We need to be able to say “I deserve better than this” and truly believe it.

@BeatricePortinari

This actually applies to all personal choices you make for yourself: your health, your appearance, your home, your friends, your career. If a man sees that you take care of yourself in all these ways because you value yourself, he will respond to the value you place on yourself.

Or he will take advantage of your hard work to keep your life together while bringing nothing to the table himself.

Make sure their dad's do half the housework.

We, as a society, need to stop making excuses for shitty men. That’s the best thing we can do for girls.

No more “he didn’t mean it/give him a chance/wow someone’s high maintenance/if your standards are like THAT you’ll end up alone”.

And we need to stop accepting men acting like babies in partnerships and start wanting more for ourselves. I, as someone who found that my ex turned into a cheating waster once we had kids (or rather revealed himself to be one)- find it a little bit of a sour taste when married and partnered women express sympathy for me while also doing 90 percent of the housework and cleaning their husband’s piss off the bathroom floor.

Thing is, men (and women) who are lazy/mean/etc tend to do a very good job of hiding this for a couple of years, sometimes longer. What if you find yourself with a newborn and your husband then starts to reveal his true colours. You’re stuck. You think he might go back to how he was an that this is an aberration. Nasty people don’t have it tattooed on their foreheads unfortunately.

Seriously?

Have a Google on your way back to whichever MRA subreddit is your favourite.

I think there are a lot of factors in this.
I ended up with two shitty long term partners - the first one a cocklodger and the second a cocklodger/hobosexual. And I had a great dad who was in no way shitty at all. So I'm not sure the crap Dad theory entirely holds up - it could go either way. I had a great dad so I was expecting other men to be like that and missed signs of them not being at the beginning.
I don't want to get into a whole load of stuff about the 2 cocklodgers but since the last one went on his merry way I have spent a lot of time thinking about it and working on my own self-esteem.

What has come out of this is that I actually really don't want to be in a relationship and that being single suits me better. I feel like I've been far too influenced by the general view in society, which still sadly prevails, that people "end up" single because they "have something wrong with them"; "aren't good enough to get a man"; "aren't pretty enough to get a man"; and therefore that single people are of lesser value than those in a partnership. There really is still a lot of "need a man to make you complete" about.
I feel like I was forcing myself into dating and relationships because that is what is expected and to be honest, I did feel like a failure because I wasn't meeting society's expectations of being able to make a relationship/marriage work.

This whole attitude needs to change and there needs to be a lot more "promotion" of being single as a valid life choice. And along with that, both being single and childfree as well as being single and choosing to have children alone, through sperm donation for example.

It's this pressure to have to have a partner that drives a lot of people (and I include myself in that) to put up with shitty men and their shitty behaviour for far longer than necessary because you're frightened to get rid and have to be single again and face judgement.
It also means people ignore red flags, or think that's just a teeny tiny red flag, in order to continue the relationship.

Being single is a valid life choice, there is no need whatsoever to live with some bloke, unless you want to and then they need to be contributing positively to your life and improving it, not making it worse.

*Beacuse in reality most women do want children, they have a limited biological window for this, most heterosexual women do want a man in their life and enjoy the partnership of a loving male/ female relationship, most women with childern do want security and commitment for their children, most women don't want to bring up children on their own and want another adult they love to share the highs and struggles of being a parent.

Young women are being sold a lie with the 'just get a cat and go on adventure holidays on your own forever. You Go Girl' lines.

Leading to many young women not taking men seriously, not placing value on the relastionships they have, and then finding themsleves in their 30s and desperate for a baby with 'child man boyfriend' who sees no reason to commit to her. And they are ending up not married, not legally protected,*

Is that you, Jordan Peterson?

If you value yourself you would not choose a man like this as that would not be valuing yourself.

See the rest of my post for details.

Good one.

No it's a very long time observer of MN relationship threads.

Which part of my post do you disagree with?

I have read your last two posts. I am not convinced by your retrograde attitude toward women.

I don't know. Perhaps the part I quoted?

@wellhelloitsme

Yes, seriously.

I shared care equally with my kids dad when they were babies

He even, shock horror, parented them all on his own

They appear to have survived

I am a woman.

I value women highly.

I see a lot of unhappiness for women as expressed right here on this thread.

I'm expressing my not currently fashionable view in good faith as I think it would have better outcomes for women. And I'd like to see that.

Feel free to disagree but your snide and insults are not warranted.

I think there are a lot of good men around but while they would be good family men they probably don't stand out as good boyfriend material. I suspect a lot of women want the fun exciting boyfriend and complain when he doesn't morph into the good dad.

Agreed.

I would like to see education about the types of relationships from a legal point of view in PHSE at school (or whatever it is called these days).
Alongside how to put a condom on and taking the pill and STDs, there should also be some discussions of the differences between living with someone and being married and the consequences of both of these in the event of a split, especially if children are involved.
There are so many threads on MN where posters have got themselves in a right mess when a partner has walked out after more than a decade, or wants to chuck the OP out, leaving the OP in a very difficult situation because of finances and not being married.

Also, teaching financial independence is very important. If girls can be taught that they always need to ensure this it puts them in a stronger position to be able to make decisions about their relationships and their future.

Let's be honest here, there are plenty of good men stuck with vile women. I can think of least least two off the top of my head.

In my experience, a lot comes down to confidence and self-esteem. Have you ever noticed the way obnoxious people always find the perfect partner? It's never the gobby bully who ends up being punched and kicked by her husband. She wouldn't marry such a man in the first place. Why? Because she thinks she deserves better. I know a vicious narcissist who married the kindest, gentlest, most easy-going man you could ever find. He was lovely - handsome, ex-army, brilliant dad, etc. And he never saw through her. It was amazing to watch. I also knew a repulsive solicitor. He was just horrible - arrogant, self-satisfied, contemptuous of others. But he found a lovely (and very intelligent) woman who worshipped him. I couldn't bear to watch them together. She'd laugh at his jokes and generally treat him like a god. Both those a*seholes had found the perfect partner, and neither of them deserved the person they were with.

But the reverse is also true. Some people, who have low self-esteem, find the one person who is wrong for them. Time and again I've watched good women with sht self-esteem find horrible, abusive men. It's like they need to be ill-treated. Or maybe it's just that that's what they feel comfortable with - or what they feel they deserve? And when they do find a good man, they'll often ruin things. Psychotherapists call it 'unconscious self-sabotage'. A woman who was abused and neglected in childhood finds a good man. He treats her well, tells her she's amazing and that he loves her. So what does she do? She has an affair with a vile, obnoxious * at work. No one can understand it. But what they don't understand is that she's trying to get back to where she feels comfortable.

Self esteem , if you have none you don't think yourself worthy of a good partner .
Too many women settle for anyone rather than the right one .

Let them hook up with the less than mediocre women, I guess.