DS21 threatened DD18

[Safarigiraffe]

Today when me/husband were at work DS was in the bathroom & DD had just got ready to leave to go to college. DD knocked on bathroom door & asked my son to hurry up as she was on a tight schedule to get the bus to leave, DS said to her no you have to wait and DD became agitated and started shouting at him to hurry up.
DS then came out the bathroom shoving daughter back in the stomach hard shouting/swearing & intimidating her so DD at this point was very visibly upset & shaking as it wasn’t like my son to react on this way and went to the bathroom to which DS then pushed the door open again shouting/swearing in her face.
DD was at college crying on/off all day, now we have spoken to DD & to DD saying this must never happen again, DS is refusing to apologise & DD never wants to speak to him ever again saying she now feels uncomfortable to be in the house with him however we both work and can’t take time off. (DD is at college DS at Uni)
Can anyone advise of the best way forward here
Many thanks to everyone

You should let go of the "out of character" defence op.

It is in his character, regardless of his past behaviour.

He is refusing to own his actions and hasn't demonstrated remorse. That is also "his character".

There will have been other red flags in the past but you have ignored them.

This will have been a family dynamic for a very long time and it is entirely possible your dd will want to move out (and should for her own safety).

Your son should be moving out. Poor DD.

Tbf it is in a lot of families.

So now hes denying it before it was all sorted

i mean he sounds like a liar to me

It really isn't.

Adult siblings shoving and pushing each other and really upsetting each is not normal family behaviour.

I have no doubt it goes on in some families and is allowed to continue though.

But it is not normal behaviour.

Brothers pushing and screaming in the faces of their adult sisters is not normal behaviour either.

Of course adult children can irritate each other, but screaming, pushing and shoving is not the norm.

It's awful behaviour.

Bad enough that two brothers would do it, but an adult male doing that to his female sister is just thuggish.

That some parents tolerate it and blame the victim is why it continues.

'I don't have favourites'

Except when you take the side of the man who assaulted your daughter and refuse to protect her in her own home because it's her fault for antagonising him, not his for physically attacking and intimidating her.

@billy1966 is absolutely right. This is not normal in the vast majority of households. And that it happens as a matter of course within some families does not make it okay.

Yep- this is how we get to ‘my partner nagged me so I hit her, it’s her bloody fault.’

It really is. Short skip from "you made me do it" and the victim changes their behaviour, living on eggshells.

A casual friend of mine had twin boys 25+ years ago.
One was sensitive, bright and creative, the other sporty, energetic and quite rough in his play.

Her quiet son was always being hurt by the other twin. Always crying and looked a bit miserable.

Her husband is a bit of a rugger bugger, and was very much that it's only rough play, and it will harden him up.

One son was very quiet in his teen years, the other was mr sporty confidence.

It appears a variation of it went on right through the childhood and teen years, as when I bumped into her a couple of years ago she mentioned the boys aren't close at all.

Since her quieter son has qualified as a doctor they have barely seen him.
She said something like he is too busy to visit.

He very much lives his own life now away from them all.

I wondered has she ever joined the dots.

Honestly he said she said is a nightmare. I was a senior HR manager for many years, before that I worked for the police. Always interesting when you compare what he said and she said (or it can just as easily be she said she said or he said he said) if there is an unbiased observer because it is rare in my experience that one is totally accurate and the other is total lies so entirely likely that she banged on the door and shouted maybe swore a bit, entirely likely that he responded in kind. Was she hurt? Well quite likely but did he deliberately shove her in the stomach or did he push past her because she was blocking the door and she felt a shove? You know them both, no one on here does, so what do you think?

Automatically taking one as gospel isn't reasonable, in a work or police situation you just wouldn't do that and nor should you.

So that's nothing like the OPs situation is it. This is all out of character so not years of one getting hurt.

I am not suggesting it is the same.

It is two brothers.

But the damage of not addressing what is happening in front of you is real.

Allowing it to continue.

Siblings do irritate each other, but allowing any physical violence to go unchecked can have long term consequences.

I don't think he was beating up his twin for years, but he was a bit of a dominant character in size and personality and Ithink that stemmed from unchecked childhood behaviour.

Insisting on respectful behaviour between siblings is a very good base for strong ties in adulthood IMO.

If you think respectful behaviour between siblings is a good thing how would you address the daughter's behaviour. We've heard lots about how awful the son is but banging on the bathroom door, swearing, shouting doesn't sound very respectful does it?

Honestly, we have to teach our children to walk away from irritating situations rather than respond with violence.

I was very angry with my son I had a very strong talk with him and said this is not to happen ever again

I bet he was shaking in his boots. No OP they are not equally to blame. It doesn’t matter what she was saying he needs to learn he can’t put his hands on people because he doesn’t like the things they are saying or he’s going to have a lot of problems going through life.

Violence never comes ‘from nowhere’ it’s just that people often ignore the signs leading up to it. The minimising attitude you have toward your sons behaviour is unlikely to be something new.

I would ensure that he knows if he ever lays a finger on anyone in your house again YOU will call the police on him. I’d also give him his marching orders. If he’s big enough to push a woman around he’s big enough to fend for himself. Your daughter shouldn’t have to suffer him any longer.

That being said, you’d do well to find out why your daughter thinks she can get her own way by being verbally abusive. That’s not acceptable at all.

Calling the police on him wouldn't have been the reasonable thing to do.

Even if they just came out and talked to him, he'd know there were real consequences to his actions.

I guarantee if his father was shouting and cursing at him to hurry up and get out of the bathroom, he would not have come out and shoved his father in the stomach backwards and squared up in his face cursing and trying to intimidate him.

This is why so many women accept violence from men in their lives. It is just laughed off.

@ancientgran I am not going to ever condone shouting and swearing from anyone.

We'll just have to differ that someone who does this, is fair game to be assaulted.

In my home with 4 children in an around that age, that definitely can irritate each other at times, violence would never be tolerated.

It really is that simple in my home.

If one of my son's assaulted my daughters because she was shouting and swearing at him, I would not accept being told it was sorted, refusing to answer questions and then allow him to give me a version days later that excused his behaviour in HIS eyes only, all the while as he continues to live in our home.

There is no excuse for violence.

I appreciate many posters believe there are acceptable circumstances, and the sister shouting and swearing is one of those circumstances.

It isn't for me, nor will it ever be, and certainly not in my home.

I appreciate that that can be very difficult for some people to grasp.

In some homes, violence doesn't ever happen and would never be tolerated.

My children have never hurt each other deliberately.
They have annoyed, irritated, called each other names and teased each other on occasion, as children, but they have never laid a hand on each other, even the boys.

If they had, it would have been dealt with very firmly, so that they would known it was completely unacceptable at a young age.

As adult young men now, they have never had a physical fight with any of their large circles of friends and I have never heard of any of their friends ever being involved with a physical altercation either.

Lots of men live long lives without raising a hand to anyone, much less their sister.

So she says he shoved her, he says he didn't. Maybe he doesn't need to learn to keep his hands to himself because he never touched her. You do realise that he is as likely to be telling the truth as she is?

I can't believe that people think the police would do anything about a brother shoving his sister as he comes out of the bathroom particularly when he says he never touched her.

Was she assaulted? How do you know that, does she just have to say it and it is true?

Even if he shoved her is that assault? Ever been in a crowd trying to get on a bus/train/busy shop. Ever called the police if someone's elbow made contact with you? No of course you haven't, physical contact does not necessarily mean someone has assaulted you.

The hysteria if a young woman says she has been shoved is ridiculous.

So she says he shoved her, he says he didn't. Maybe he doesn't need to learn to keep his hands to himself because he never touched her. You do realise that he is as likely to be telling the truth as she is?

Not all stories are created equal. She said at the time he shoved her. She was upset and remained upset.

He said something about it all being sorted at the time, didn't deny shoving her. Days later he comes up with a story about her screaming and shouting and him not shoving her.

If he'd said at the time, "I can't believe she'd saying this, I've not laid a hand on her" and seemed consistent and emotionally congruent, you'd have a point. His story seems just that, a story.

Even if he shoved her is that assault?

Yes. Your 'work' 'with' the police didn't teach you a lot did it?

Even if he shoved her is that assault? Ever been in a crowd trying to get on a bus/train/busy shop. Ever called the police if someone's elbow made contact with you? No of course you haven't, physical contact does not necessarily mean someone has assaulted you.

Come off it, they aren't comparable.

'Even if he shoved her' - in DD's version of events he didn't just jostle past her, he shoved her in the stomach hard enough that it hurt her and frightened her.

'Even if he shoved her' in the manner she described, that wasn't assault?

Of course that's assault.

If someone trying to get past me in a busy shop / train station etc shoved me in the stomach hard enough they hurt me and frightened me, I would consider that assault too yes.

@ancientgran
Now you are arguing that it never happened but from your other comments I see that you actually think that men are entitled to hit women.

Ds's bag would be packed and on the doorstep.. just until I retrieved his house/car keys.
Then he'd be out the door and on his way to who knows or cares where.