To hate most mixed sex fitting rooms

[Humbold]

I haven't been out shopping much post-Covid because it seemed pointless when the fitting rooms were closed. Went with my teenage daughter to pick up some summer clothes this week and was shocked by how many stores have gone for mixed sex changing rooms.

First stop was Primark. Headed to fitting room and noticed the mixed queue, got to the head and was pointed to changing area "it's mixed just pick any cubicle". I was a bit surprised but went with it thinking it would be fine as long as there were self-contained cubicles with floor-to-ceiling lockable doors. Got met with row upon row of curtained cubicles, hard to see which ones were occupied without angling myself to check down the gap at the side (they never seem to close over properly without much faffing) or looking at the bottom to see if I could see feet. Gingerly opened one and to my relief it was free. I hated it.

I was trying on a dress that involved me taking my shoes off and stripping down to my bra and knickers. My elbow would move the curtain every now and again so I was constantly checking it was closed over properly. I could hear teenage lads walking past and the girl in the next cubicle was squeezed in with her boyfriend who was chatting away. It was crazy. I felt so vulnerable and tense so didn't bother trying my other 2 dresses on.

Previously I would have got an outfit on and maybe if I needed help with the zip or wanted my friend/daughter's opinion I would come out into the communal area and look in the full length mirror. I might come out partially dressed (unbuttoned, unzipped etc...) and ask an assistant for the next size up etc... But there's no way you can do that in this mixed setting. When I pulled back the curtain there was a man waiting at the end of one row, looking on his phone, probably just waiting on his wife or girlfriend. It just felt wrong.

I remember when there were communal changing rooms and they were bad enough but at least they weren't mixed. My DD said she went to H&M with her boyfriend and they were exactly the same - just curtained. Her boyfriend came in and just sat on the floor at the end of a row of curtained cubicles and she said it didn't feel right but didn't say anything.

I've been to Cos and their changing rooms are completely self-contained, lockable, floor-to-ceiling cubicles. It's on a much smaller scale too which helps - probably a max of 10 cubicles. I can deal with that. But since when did shops think they could pile in 30/40/50 curtained spaces and mix in men with women and make the changing experience so bloody horrible? I haven't been in an M&S changing room for a while - are any of theirs going mixed? I'm concerned it's becoming a trend and I don't understand why.

As a young girl I'd have been worried about lads pulling back curtains 'accidentally'. As an adult I'm worried about anyone pulling back a curtain and exposing me in a state of undress but more uncomfortable if there's a chance my best mate's Dad is stood there! I'm not keen on shopping at the best of times but if this is the way things are going, it's online all the way for me. The High Street can do one.

AIBU?

So why isn't it okay to walk around a beach in a bra and knickers?

I hope you reported it. This is why they have a system with numbered pegs and handing all the items back at the end.

Just because you don't get something doesn't invalidate it as someone else's lived experience.

Muslim women
Sexual abuse victims

Or just 'I'd rather not have men see me naked' is just as valid as any other reason.

If you want men to see you naked then that's lovely but there are women who don't.

When I say ‘genuine’, it’s because I do believe there are those who truly feel like women born in a man’s body who just want to live a life as a woman.

It's not possible to live life as a woman unless you are female. There is one thing all women across the world, through all time have in common and that is their female sex. That's it. No amount of lipstick is going to make a man a woman. No change of clothes, no body modification, nothing. A man cannot live as a woman because he is not female.

Merryclaire When I say ‘genuine’, it’s because I do believe there are those who truly feel like women born in a man’s body who just want to live a life as a woman.

No-one should be staring at people in a changing room or making them feel uncomfortable. If a person is going to a changing room for any other purpose than trying on clothes, then its an indication that their motives are related to other purposes. Most people are in and out of the changing room quickly, not hanging around, staring, getting a thrill out of it, etc..

Regarding swimwear on the beach, theres a whole history behind this which relates to how women used to cover themselves up in mobile changing rooms until they descended into the sea which has eventually led into generally held public acceptance that its a safe area for people to wear certain clothing to bathe in in public areas. Its a bit like a contract that everyone knows the terms of - you don't stare or grope people in swimwear because they are there to swim, not to meet sexual partners (well mostly anyway, it can't be generally assumed otherwise). Its a social construct with a long history. Hence the difference in clothing between underwear and swimwear. Functionally, similar, use - different.

Its the same in swimming pools or even the naked spa I previously mentioned. People who ignore these rules will be doing so due to a deliberate choice made by them, not because they don't understand the social rules.

I didnt know this was a thing...I'd hate it too @Humbold

Re the ‘surely they need somewhere to go too?’ point (re transwomen changing). Don’t forget - transwomen are not a ‘type of woman’, they are a ‘type of man’.
This is not women‘s problem to solve.

Why can’t men be required to just accept there are other men who wish to identify as a woman (whatever that actually means) who might be in their changing rooms. Just shrug and get on with their day.

Let’s not forget that IF IF IF IF IF a TW was ever in an altercation with a man in a changing room then the TW is just as capable of putting up a fight - this is two men fighting. It is not the same as a man attacking a woman.

OR, as people frequently suggest, there should be a third space. Single sex male, single sex female and a third option for either sex who don’t mind mixing.

If Stonewall had put their many millions and lobbying power into this every bloody Primark and council loo in the country could have shiny new third loos/ changing rooms by now!

I wonder how long it will take before a spycam epidemic will happen (Google South Korea spycam for some horrific stories about how this has impacted women’s lives there). Not saying this willen happen in the UK on the same scale but they’re making it very easy now for voyeuristic creeps to secretly install them.
I wouldn’t bother shopping at these places anymore and email them to let them know why.

I do a lot of swimming, and there was actually a spycam installed in a local swimming pool. It was all very odd as the man was caught filming young girls by parents and he managed to escape by running out, past reception which had a massive glass frontage, jump into his car and was apparently untraceable as cctv wasn't working that day and no-one saw his car registration...as I say all very odd and really makes you wonder.

In my (lengthy) experience of public swimming pools, they are an absolute haven for creeps and I should imagine that mixed sex changing rooms would offer a similar appeal.

I routinely check public toilets, etc. for spycam. They can be as small as the head of a screw in a door panel. Even at work when a man asked to use our loos and was in there an unusually long time, I went in to check for spycam after he left.

I’ve done the same thing in the past @WallaceinAnderland one of the worst parts is, from what I learned when I was reading about the issues they have with this in South Korea, is that the footage often will be uploaded to porn websites so other pervs can see it too. You can buy some device on Amazon that can be attached to your smartphone and checks for any hidden cameras in secluded places.

Completely agree!

@WallaceinAnderland how do you check for spy cams? Is there something you use or is it just a visual check?

AFAIK you can turn off the lights if possible and use the flashlight of your smartphone to see if anything (a camera lens) reflects when you shine the flashlight on it. You can also check for unusual stuff like small holes, buttons etc as they are often disguised and very small. Google for examples. If you’re really concerned I would buy the spycam detecting device.

The one at work is a fully enclosed room with no window, so easy to turn off the light and search with your phone light but mostly it's a thorough, close up check around the area. Hotel rooms are ones to check as well. Lots of advice re this if you google.

Absolutely well said.

Thanks @WallaceinAnderland and @LaBellina - it's not even something I've thought about before. This is bloody horrible.

Agree 💯 👏👏

Local leisure centre has mixed for swimming… etc do I need to shown people’s nakedness in the shower (showers all together) or slut dropping to pick a hair brush and the comb hair naked.. why just why

YANBU.

Since Covid hit, I’ve done far more online shopping anyway. Haven’t been in a changing room for quite some time now. And if I got to a changing room that I found was mixed sex with nothing but piddly curtains separating me from the men the other side, I’d ditch the clothes and walk straight out.

I remember going to one store many years ago (can’t remember which one). And the changing rooms all had doors, but they weren’t floor to ceiling. So you could see the top of your head and the bottom of your legs and feet. I was already finding that a little crap as I prefer to have full privacy, when I saw a bloke go to the changing room opposite and realised it was a unisex changing room. Never tried on jeans so fast in my life. Couldn’t wait to get out of there!

I remember thinking any bloke could walk past my changing room and just peer over the top of the door if they wanted to and I felt super uncomfortable and vulnerable. No way would I change in a mixed sex changing room that only offered curtains as a barrier.

Well Stonewall doesconsider it transphobic.

Acceptance without exception means exactly that.

I worked on the fitting rooms years ago and you can see much more through a small gap in the curtains when you’re outside looking in, than you would realise when you’re inside looking out.

That happened to me once, an old man pulled the curtain open while I was changing. Horrible.

Apologies I never came back to this thread but I read most of it apart from the last few posts. Unfortunately I saw this report today in the Daily Mail about a Primark changing room and another fine upstanding male member of the Met Police force.

This is why we need to revert to single sex changing rooms. I'm sure if I write to Primark I'll get the usual 'very rare' case nonsense. Except it's getting to be less rare and absolutely 100% wouldn't happen in a single sex changing room unless a man had got in there under false pretences.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11039617/Met-Police-officer-36-caught-secretly-photographing-woman-Primark-changing-room.html

Even if it was rare, they never serve time for it do they?

They are legalising voyeurism. And sexual assault and rape.