To hate most mixed sex fitting rooms

[Humbold]

I haven't been out shopping much post-Covid because it seemed pointless when the fitting rooms were closed. Went with my teenage daughter to pick up some summer clothes this week and was shocked by how many stores have gone for mixed sex changing rooms.

First stop was Primark. Headed to fitting room and noticed the mixed queue, got to the head and was pointed to changing area "it's mixed just pick any cubicle". I was a bit surprised but went with it thinking it would be fine as long as there were self-contained cubicles with floor-to-ceiling lockable doors. Got met with row upon row of curtained cubicles, hard to see which ones were occupied without angling myself to check down the gap at the side (they never seem to close over properly without much faffing) or looking at the bottom to see if I could see feet. Gingerly opened one and to my relief it was free. I hated it.

I was trying on a dress that involved me taking my shoes off and stripping down to my bra and knickers. My elbow would move the curtain every now and again so I was constantly checking it was closed over properly. I could hear teenage lads walking past and the girl in the next cubicle was squeezed in with her boyfriend who was chatting away. It was crazy. I felt so vulnerable and tense so didn't bother trying my other 2 dresses on.

Previously I would have got an outfit on and maybe if I needed help with the zip or wanted my friend/daughter's opinion I would come out into the communal area and look in the full length mirror. I might come out partially dressed (unbuttoned, unzipped etc...) and ask an assistant for the next size up etc... But there's no way you can do that in this mixed setting. When I pulled back the curtain there was a man waiting at the end of one row, looking on his phone, probably just waiting on his wife or girlfriend. It just felt wrong.

I remember when there were communal changing rooms and they were bad enough but at least they weren't mixed. My DD said she went to H&M with her boyfriend and they were exactly the same - just curtained. Her boyfriend came in and just sat on the floor at the end of a row of curtained cubicles and she said it didn't feel right but didn't say anything.

I've been to Cos and their changing rooms are completely self-contained, lockable, floor-to-ceiling cubicles. It's on a much smaller scale too which helps - probably a max of 10 cubicles. I can deal with that. But since when did shops think they could pile in 30/40/50 curtained spaces and mix in men with women and make the changing experience so bloody horrible? I haven't been in an M&S changing room for a while - are any of theirs going mixed? I'm concerned it's becoming a trend and I don't understand why.

As a young girl I'd have been worried about lads pulling back curtains 'accidentally'. As an adult I'm worried about anyone pulling back a curtain and exposing me in a state of undress but more uncomfortable if there's a chance my best mate's Dad is stood there! I'm not keen on shopping at the best of times but if this is the way things are going, it's online all the way for me. The High Street can do one.

AIBU?

Impossible to know. But maybe they get off on wearing women’s clothing. That’s under the trans umbrella (according to stonewall, anyway).

So you'd be perfectly comfortable walking round in your underwear in a shop...?

And also, you'd be fine with just taking your shorts and t-shirt off, Essentialy strip down to your underwear and try in a dress in the shop, by the rail it was displayed on?

And you'd be equally fine, with some one else doing the same? You'd have no quibbles about walking past someone who is in their underwear, and they're trying on a pair of trousers?

I will not go into any mixed changing facilities, whether they be in shops or sports centres etc.
In fact there are shops I have boycotted recently, because of their policy to have mixed changing rooms

I won't even order online from them, total boycott.

Regardless of whether you're just removing your cardigan or completely stripping off, the fact remains that yet another female space is being taken over by some men and their wants, in other words, their needs override that of women.
If you're happy for this to happen, then shame on you.
If trans want to use facilities other than male ones, then they should have their own and not have the right to impact on women.
This is just the tip of the iceberg.

LondonQueen

user1474315215

It honestly wouldn't bother me. You were no less clothed than you would be on the beach or in the swimming pool.

This. It's not like you strip off completely!

But when going to the beach, or in the swimming pool, you are willingly going to those places perfectly happy to be seen in your swimming costume or bikini by any man who happens to be there also.

When you are out shopping, say at Primark, you're not necessarily as willing to be seen in your undies and the changing rooms should be arranged so that men cannot access the area where women are trying on clothes. Women's privacy and dignity should be respected.

If I take my mum to M&S and she likes the look of a blouse, it would be nice for her to try it on in changing rooms which afford her the privacy and dignity she deserves, away from men.

Yeah but I think there’s a big difference between genuine trans women who just want to buy some clothes, and the fetishised, pretend ‘trans women’ who get off on putting themselves in women’s spaces.

and

I suspect most genuine trans people avoid single sex public changing rooms for fear of being ostracised. However I still feel it shouldn’t be a free for all. Maybe big stores could offer both a women’s and a unisex section?
If a predatory ‘trans woman’ is dressed up to look enough like a biological woman at a passing glance and entered a women’s changing room, then unfortunately it would be incredibly difficult for changing room attendants to police. As with most things in life, there are always a few that spoil things for everyone else.

Do you realise there there is no "true trans"?! If there were, it would require someone to decide that someone's a fake trans ie not who they say they are. And the entire point of this whole thing is that whoever you say you are IS who you are and cannot be disputed.

Who is someone to say that the man who you think is faking being trans isn't actually trans just because he assaults a woman? That would mean that no trans-identified male could ever assault women. And given the prison stats, that's statistically impossible.

We have to understand that when we say that everybody should be free to identify as they want and everybody else has to accept that or they are bigoted/transphobic, then it means that even the guys in Scotland who identify as trans in prison, get transferred to the women’s prison and then re identify as male upon release (this is documented as happening) are as trans as the person with diagnosed gender dysphoria lasting decades. There is no "fake trans" with self-ID.

I feel very angry at the apparent naivity of some on here who appear to not be aware of the levels of harassment and abuse level suffered by women and girls at the hands of men, however they identify.
There is absolutely no reason to allow males in womens spaces. It is to please a few who want validation plus many who will do anything to perve and take advantage of the situation or worse as we have seen. Most of us women are saying No very loudly and resent those who tell us to shut up and ignore lack of consent. It really does not benefit women in any way and actively harms us. So let’s boycott these places . Re the horrible ejaculate on the dress, it is very naive not to know that there is a large group of males that especially enjoy this and boast about it, especially on womens underwear they may be trying on. And see the other thread on the hidden number of paedophiles likely to be around.

Please read the trans widow thread on FEMINISM Sex and gender board, where there are first hand experiences of women married to these fetishistic males.

I actually picked up some tops in H&M today to try on, noticed the changing room was mixed, just curtains and situated in the menswear department too, I put the items back and left. If it was floor to ceiling doors I wouldn’t have minded as much but not flimsy curtains.

Gross! I would not be happy changing in a mixed changing room either.

I was with my 12 year old daughter in New Look as she wanted to try clothes on. She was absolutely horrified at the amount of men in the changing room area, sitting on the seats etc within the changing room.
She was so uncomfortable, had me holding the curtain as they never close properly.
I asked on the way out if men were meant to be in there, was told it's fine. Not for an embarrassed girl going through puberty it's not.
My partner & son would never ever wait inside the female changing room, there were like wtf when I told them.
My daughter will now not try clothes on now without me there.

When I say ‘genuine’, it’s because I do believe there are those who truly feel like women born in a man’s body who just want to live a life as a woman.
When I say ‘pretend’ it’s because there are those who just want to take advantage of the self-identification situation to satisfy their perversion. These are the predators that we need to be worried about, but I think it’s sad that many harmless trans women have to be lumped in with them.
That’s not to say all ‘genuine’ trans woman must be harmless, but I don’t see why they are more likely to hurt people than anyone else.

I can’t tell the difference, just like I can’t tell if any other passing stranger has good intentions or not.

Offending amongst self-declared transwomen is at the same level as men.

What does it mean to “feel” or “live like a woman”?

Being discriminated against? Doing all the wifework? Being paid less than others? Obstacles to career progression? Pension poverty? Periods? Pink tax?

I mean, I have all the lady bits but don’t do half of that list. How do I know if I, an actual woman, is womaning right?

Have you any daughters?

Mine is 11. Going through puberty. I can categorically tell you that I don’t want any penis-owner showering next to her at the swimming pool etc, or in the cubicle next door when she’s trying on bras. Whether it’s Alex Drummond or anyone else.

Then why not just get changed in the middle of the shop floor?

I donr understand why more people aren't complaining about the change to mixed sex changing rooms, but not updating facilities away from curtains to proper doors.

I have no problem with properly designed mixed sex facilities, but the curtain instead of a door on a changing cubical isn't good enough for a mixed sex changing room.

I'm not convinced this is a pro trans thing, more a cost saving wrapped up in being inclusive. If you only have 1 mixed sex changing room open, you only need 1 staff member on handing out tags and one putting back unwanted items, rather than 4 members of staff covering 2 changing rooms in different areas. If you only need 1 changing room, you can free up floor space for more items or rent a smaller shop space. A shop gets to provide a cheaper service to customers and sell it as inclusive, from a shop point of view, win all round. Just needs proper doors to get customers on board.

@user1474315215

Because, on a beach or a swimming pool etc, I can choose whether I want to be in a state of undress in front of men, women, kids or the local wildlife.
In a female changing room, I expect my dignity and security to be maintained.

Along with what I wrote above.

I don't mind getting completely naked in front of my husband, but I wouldn't want to get naked in front of my adult sons or the neighbours.

Not sure why this has turned into a trans debate - the original post was just about mixed sex changing rooms.
Personally I have never even come across a trans woman in a changing room. If I did, I wouldn’t just assume they were a predator.
Surely they need somewhere to go too?
Perhaps if shops invested in proper floor to ceiling lockable cubicles then it wouldn’t be an issue for everyone to share. But I agree the flimsy curtains are hopeless for a mixed space.

1. when trying clothes on I might take off my bra if it’s a dress that might otherwise look crap with a bra. I’m certainly NOT taking off a bra when I’m on the beach!

2. I would be wearing a thong in a changing room. On the beach - no thong - bikini bottoms.

3. perverts are largely MEN. In all the sadly many times I’ve been leered at, followed, flashed at, grabbed, sexually assaulted or raped it was always by a man - never a woman!

4. lots of women criminals are actually trans women…

I won’t use mixed changing rooms, they make me feel really uncomfortable. ‘Trying on’ used to be part of the fun shopping for clothes experience - but now it’s just another unsafe place.

Mixed changing is not safe for girls and women and I won’t let my DD use them either.

This. There's AGPs bragging on social media about getting a boner in a frock and wanking over it. Boycott and tell them why

I’ve complained to Primark about this just recently. It’s appalling.

When I say ‘genuine’, it’s because I do believe there are those who truly feel like women born in a man’s body who just want to live a life as a woman.
When I say ‘pretend’ it’s because there are those who just want to take advantage of the self-identification situation to satisfy their perversion. These are the predators that we need to be worried about, but I think it’s sad that many harmless trans women have to be lumped in with them.

You can categorise trans people however you choose, of course, but this is actually transphobic. It runs totally against the right of trans people to self-ID. You are dividing them into categories that don't exist in the trans movement - which is the social movement that has brought about mixed sex changing rooms. I'm not being pedantic here. You're not the only one who divides them up and the entire point is that there is no division, no "gate keeping" by anybody external to the individual who identifies as trans. You may think this is nonsensical because you see different reasons for people stating they're the other sex (or non binary), but that is not how this actually works.

That’s not to say all ‘genuine’ trans woman must be harmless, but I don’t see why they are more likely to hurt people than anyone else.
Not all men are sexual predators, attack women, spy on them etc. Yet we traditionally excluded men from women's spaces for women's safety. However, there's a higher rate (%) of trans-identified men in prison for sexual crimes according to MOJ figures than other men. I don't see why these people are harming people either, but the data says that some definitely are. That still doesn't mean that all trans-identified men are a threat. Many definitely aren't. But it at least indicates that the risk posed by them is at least the same as other men in their sex class.

I don’t think it’s transphobic to not want to lump trans women in with men who just stick on a dress to gain access to women’s spaces for the purpose of committing a sexual crime. But hey, that’s just my opinion right.