To think male violence will never end?

[YouAreNotBatman]

I was reading the news about 14 year old boy raping and killing a 10 year old girl and I just became so tired.
So tired of endless violence boys and men do to girls and women.
And how they don’t care, they seem to think it’s funny or get angry at any woman who try and speak about it.

Ok.

@YouAreNotBatman of course, the irony is that men are automatically much safer if male violence is reduced. Never seems to occur to them though.

Non-violent men have more responsibility than women to solve the problem because they are more likely to have the means and opportunity to do so. We live in a patriarchal society. We have a police force and law system that are institutionally sexist. Men are more likely to be in promoted positions and in a position to institute change. They are also more likely to have male peers and be able to challenge the culture of sexism that impacts violence.

No, you'll assume she was abused and move on.

Yes I may assume she was abused by her husband, if that was proved to be the case then I would think of yet another case of an abusive man. Then I would think of why is there such a massive problem of abusive men in the country and what can be done so combat it and what measure can be taken as it's at endemic levels.

Of course you would.

You wouldn't immediately leap to the defence of murdered men, would you?

No.

Because despite the pontificating on this thread, human kindness, sympathy, understanding and excusing is hugely favoured to women.

Jean down the road kills her husband.

Are you going to start campaigning?

No, you'll assume she was abused and move on.

Me personally, I campaign for and support charities which focus on female victims of domestic violence due to my personal experiences which I disclosed last night. My mum was psychologically abused by her male partner who one day decided to kill her. It was proved to be premeditated. As a result of this experience I have made an active choice to support women.

However, that doesn't mean I don't believe that men can't be victims of domestic abuse ( my brother was in an abusive relationship however, he was the one that escalated the situation and became violent on a number of occasions and has been in prison as a result so I still see that as a male violence problem)

I have called out abusive behaviour in women and made efforts to support my brother - until he became violent.

I wouldn't make any assumptions about a couple I didn't know.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about me.

You need to see it like smoking : in one generation it went from being normal to pariah stuff because there was the social pressure and the WILL to change.

ditto racism

Instead we are facing the erosion of womens rights at a frightening pace across
many different areas of life - from
abortion to the choking defence to casual work based discrimination. We are going the other way and it’s frightening. We are not even allowed to define ourselves. Without that we cannot fight sex based crime.

There is little will there outside affected groups and even then - here on mumsnet - the very second response was: hat about da menz? WHY?

it has taken me 15 years to persuade my husband, a gentle academic ie very much NOT an alpha male - to actually see it. He was horrified when I cried with relief at giving birth to a son. Similarly, it never occurred to him, white middle class & highly educated - that most women are shorter/physically weaker than most men so of course it’s intimidating being walked behind or followed while out jogging. Vulnerability is a relatively new concept to
him and only because I have been banging on about it for over a decade. We need people like him to apply pressure.

We need to engage men on this but it’s just not happening. instead they all look at their feet, grateful that they’re not female. Their apathy disgusts me.

Maybe because they are collateral in your campaign for women, and you expect them to be ever so grateful.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou I've no idea about the boy in the OP post as I've told you before, I haven't read it, I'm not interested in that particular case. I'm interested in the discussion of male violence as a whole.

It is getting exhausting watching your poor reasoning, you are going round in circles and quite frankly from your posts I think you're a bit unhinged.

What campaign for women? Did you miss the post where I said I worked for a male suicide charity? I’d say it’s not me who’s after collateral in this discussion.

Yeah, I’m starting to think that too. I wrote a post this morning about how that poster needed to pick an angle and it’s worse this evening. Constant deflection - the idea of men being discriminated against when we say ‘men are more violent in society’ has been dropped now too.

@Pumperthepumper Yep. I'm hopeful one day we women (men also welcome) can have a proper discussion on Mumsnet about the big problem of collective male violence without excusals, derailing and NAMALT popping up.

Until that time....

(I'm actually in work processing various crimes, not had a women yet charged with a serious violent crime since I started my shift, lots of males though. Same as yesterday, and the day before that..Need to get back to the grind. Sigh).

So, is your issue with the fact that they're not accomplishing enough then? I'm confused.

We have some posters saying "what's the solution?" and "what are men going to do about it?", but as you've explained, men are already doing plenty about it.

Men are doing plenty and the murder rate of women is six in every million nowadays - incredibly low. So what is there to discuss?

They're doing a bit. But it's clearly not enough.

You've made your point. You think the levels of violence/murders against women are so minuscule it doesn't warrant discussion. I and others disagree.

I just feel that for many 'feminists' the driving force is a desire to moan about men and use them as a scapegoat. There are so many other areas where female lives are lost in much greater frequency. Areas where a difference could much more easily be made instead of trying to totally eradicate something that is already at a very low rate.

The key difference is that if we focus on other areas there is no obvious 'culprit' to direct our hate towards, so for some it's more appealing to focus on the tiny number (proportionately) of homicides rather than things like health issues which don't have an obvious perpetrator. I think many really believe their own ideology and aren't really aware of this.

The focus isn't really on helping women in a lot of these discussions. It's more using them as a vehicle to create victimhood and set up a particular discourse. The focus is really on men.

I put 'feminists' in apostrophes because they aren't necessarily the same demographic as those who just focus on women's causes - education, refugees, austerity, etc. Although of course there is some crossover.

I feel just as strongly about racism, misogyny, general bigotry in other areas, but these are already condemned by society so they don't really need to be outlined to the same degree. A bigot is a bigot no matter which demographic they are aiming at. That's pretty much it in a nutshell for me.

Which areas specifically?

You keep focussing on homicides. In my line of work I see far more than that. From cat calling in the street that men think is 'top bants' all the way up to murder and everything in between. It's the attitudes, porn, entrenched views, other women apologist views etc etc.

You are trying to simplify something that isn't simple at all, all because the amount of women murdered in comparison to the amount of human males actually on the planet doesn't seem big to you.

You are ignoring that even what you consider a small ratio, is still a much, much bigger ratio than female to male violence.

The bigger picture.

In fact, I can’t think of a single area where more female lives are lost than to male violence.

The key difference is that if we focus on other areas there is no obvious 'culprit' to direct our hate towards, so for some it's more appealing to focus on the tiny number (proportionately) of homicides rather than things like health issues which don't have an obvious perpetrator. I think many really believe their own ideology and aren't really aware of this.

I am aware of other issues but they're all linked and we need to consider the bigger picture.

The way women are viewed by society (and specifically by men) is a key part of this. The fact we live in a patriarchal society is a huge part of the problem. When you have men making decisions, making laws, designing products, addressing health issues, testing drugs etc we find that women are at a disadvantage. These men aren't doing this purposefully but they're just not considering womens needs.
The book Invisible Women addresses this excellently.

I research womens career development as part of my job and as part of that I need to consider a wide range of things which includes how children are socialised according to their sex right through to workplace culture, policies and procedures which actively disadvantage women.

We also need to consider micro aggressions towards women and how they can escalate to more serious cases of sexual assault, rape and murder. Because it all comes down to how men view women and their place in society.

It's all part of the bigger picture and to try and dismiss male violence against women because the murder rate is low just feels like you don't get it 🤷🏼‍♀️

That’s because they don’t actually care.

There is a woman who runs both women’s and men’s shelter:
She said in a interview everyday men call to the women’s shelter harassi g and asking ”what about men” (like I said she also runs men’s shelter), but no one calls to men’s shelter asking about women.

Men don’t care about men and they sure so not care about women.
Their main point is to prevent women talking or trying to change things.
Because most important thing is no one is to say anything but positive things about men.

There is a woman who runs both women’s and men’s shelter:
She said in a interview everyday men call to the women’s shelter harassi g and asking ”what about men” (like I said she also runs men’s shelter), but no one calls to men’s shelter asking about women.
This reminds me of the comedian on Twitter who,on international women's day, would raise money for Refuge by responding to everyone who asked when international men's day was.

Funnily enough, women don't make a point of asking when IWD is on international men's day.....

You are trying to simplify something that isn't simple at all, all because the amount of women murdered in comparison to the amount of human males actually on the planet doesn't seem big to you.

You are ignoring that even what you consider a small ratio, is still a much, much bigger ratio than female to male violence.

The bigger picture."

See, this is what I'm talking about.

Your 'bigger picture' seems primarily concerned with the fact that more women are killed than men, rather than the fact that women have been killed.

To me, something that kills 1000 women and 1000 men is worse than something which kills 100 women and 20 men. However, a lot of feminists would consider the latter worse just because less men have died, despite the net result being worse for women.

I guess this is where 'equality of the sexes' comes in, in its literal sense. However, for me, actually improving things for women is more important than trying to equalise statistics.

I feel that the stats wouldn't be a problem for a lot of feminists if an equal number of men died, which is absurd logic IMO as it still doesn't help women.

That absolutely mad logic is just something you’ve made up though. Nobody thinks that.

If it helps you, forget about the women. Men are also killing loads and loads of men - men are massively more likely to be killed in a random attack. Men are more likely to be attacked by a stranger. But guess what?

I feel that the stats wouldn't be a problem for a lot of feminists if an equal number of men died, which is absurd logic IMO as it still doesn't help women.

You're right it is absurd logic! I don't know anyone who thinks like this!!

OK, but if it's not to do with the fact that homicides are unbalanced between the sexes (always one of the most mentioned statistics) then why do feminists focus so much on the '100 women a year' when, for example, lung cancer alone kills something like 16,000 women a year in the UK.

You could save many many more lives by campaigning against smoking. Even convincing one women in every hundred would save more lives than the total number of women murdered annually. So why is it always about female homicides?