DS Bullied By Child with SEN

[ellie21]

My son who is at a mainstream Primary School is being bullied by another child who is undergoing assessment for ADD.
Initially this was low level bullying ( name calling etc) but has developed into threats of violence. In the last two weeks he has been physically assaulted three times by this child. The school have confirmed that this is one sided and is happening to other students too.
I have been into school a number of times to talk to staff and whereas they are sympathetic they say they have a duty of care to the child with SEN as he is struggling to cope at school.
AIBU to think that this is separate issue? I am absolutely furious my child is being hurt.

Do you not think parents of children who are struggling in mainstream schools don't feel frustrated, upset and angry at the system though? There are no options for most beyond pulling their child out of the schooling system altogether, that's not the answer is it. Are you suggesting though that they should be present at all school all day to 'parent' their children- how do you propose that working? Surely you should be angry at the people who have left schools and families in this position, not those trying to do the best for their children.

Thank you and sorry to hear about your son.

I think many parents on munsnet are batshit 🤪

Really valuable contribution to the thread, really mature.

Great post. Hopefully some parents take note.

Seems pretty much right, 1 bully makes life hell for other pupils, the other pupils mental health and school work dips until they leave school to go to another just as long as the bullys ok thats fine.

Sen or not the child is disruptive and teachers have no idea how to take care of him is the truth.

At least your child comes home every day uninjured or not needing a trip to the ER like others do... don't blame others for being angry that their children are being attacked on a daily basis. Kids have the RIGHT not to be physically assaulted in school every day and to feel safe. If they were adults this would not be allowed or acceptable. Do you know how detrimental it is to a child to be attacked for nothing every day in school because they trigger a kid with their voice or their face??? It causes mentals AND physical damage. But you suggest, the child who just comes to school and sits there be removed?

My child isn't SEN, but I have empathy for those who do have children who have been fucked over by cuts to education which then as a bonus also impacts others. It also causes long term damage to them to be in environments that make them lash out. I agree no child should be facing the risk of violence at school, but i also don't think parents who aren't able to access alternative provision should be forced to withdraw their child from the system altogether either. People should be angry at the government, but instead we all just argue amongst ourselves and blame others who are also in shitty situations, which effectively let's them off the hook and diminishes their responsibility for this shit show we find ourselves in.

@Shoebie That's true in fairness. It is shitty on both sides.At the end of the day ALL the children in the situation as massively being let down.

Indeed they have. It doesn't make things any better, it doesn't help the child who is getting attacked; this is unacceptable and absolutely shouldn't be something that happens so not suggesting it is okay. Not to you in particular but this painting a picture by some in the thread of selfish parents just bunging their child in school and not caring or bothering is unfair. Many are very distressed and would welcome any additional support with open arms- and actually fight really hard for it and don't get anywhere.

you said if your child was ever violent you’d pull them out of school and that you and another poster were the only ones with a moral compass. My child has quite complex needs and autism. I do my best but I am by no means an expert or a therapist. He wasn’t at the stage where he was injuring other kids but he was having violent meltdowns at school so I could see it going that way. I could have pulled him out at this like you would at the first signs of any violence and he’d prob be stuck at home 4 years later. Then when he’s an adult he’s still no better at controlling emotions etc and would prob end up in prison. It’s not just a case of consequences they have to have the skills to be able to manage emotions as well as no amount of consequences will make any difference otherwise. To cut a very long story short mine is now in specialist and is doing amazingly and he gets therapy to assist with emotions, managing social situations etc so I’m now slightly more confident he may be able to function as an adult member of society. I am by no means against sen kids being excluded or permanently excluded from school if it is warranted as ultimately this also assists in getting the right provision but not the pressure you are trying to put on parents to remove and home school, in my opinion it’s a very short term view.

So I left teaching fairly recently as this sort of scenario is ever increasing and its unmanageable. When I was a trainee and in the first decade or so in the classroom we had a separate very small class which was a fantastic environment for those who needed it; they would join their age related classes for certain things but it was a very good balance for all. Children who needed it would be able to access alternative provision if it was more appropriate (although parents sadly still had to fight somewhat, it's never been easy).

Slowly but surely the funding for these classes dropped, and the thresholds for children to be given a place in a more suitable school sharply rose- this was alongside increasing class sizes, less support staff and schools taking on more and more functions as sure start etc closed. It just became absolute hell, no child could really be adequately supported or be given the opportunities to thrive that they deserved, and yet still people voted fucking Tory.

Like other public services such as the NHS unfortunately it's going to get worse, and everyone involved will suffer. As it goes I never ever met a parent of a child who displayed such behaviour as being entitled, not arsed or whatever else. They were always relentlessly fighting the system to try and sort something, always mortified and at the end of their tether. If they were excluded it could make it easier to access another school, but we had limitations as to what we could exclude on. Not an easy situation for anyone.

Speaking as someone who was a 1:1 for SEN in mainstream and now work in a specialist provision. Typically if a child with SEN is accepted into mainstream then it's accepted they can access the work so would be too high in a specialist provision. However this doesn't take into account behaviours. Going off my own experience with supporting SEN in mainstream, mainstream are not given the funds labelled in their EHCP to meet their needs. Those funds are distributed across the school to plug the gaps of funding for other areas. It's not right and it's not ok, but given the government has slashed funding so much it is now almost impossible for SEN kids to access mainstream as their simply isn't the funding or training offered to deal with it.

On the other hand, specialist provisions deal with high behaviours and low awareness that make being assaulted three times a week look mild. Just today I've been bitten twice, had my hand bleed due to scratches and at least half a dozen new bruises appeared on my legs and arms. Yesterday a child was thrown off the top of a climbing frame due to another child being in crisis. This isn't to say what is happening to your child is ok OP, just to highlight the differences in a SEN provision Vs mainstream.

SEN take the most extreme and can't take those who can but struggle to access mainstream due to the sensory ect factors which leads to behaviours because they are full up with n children who most days are behaviour management. This then leads these children to mainstream, without funding or strategies, taking in the less extreme pupils as they are too high for specialist provision but too low for mainstream. It's why the goverwnt need to reintroduce arcs across the board for children who are able to access the mainstream curriculum but need support to do so. In an ideal world it would work but it doesn't, because children can't be seperated into two extreme categories.

In your case OP I would definatly take PP advice and keep everything to email and take things higher if the school doesn't recognise their duty of care to all pupils instead of the ones with SEN. It's ok to be mindful of SEN but at some point the other children shouldn't suffer. Children with SEN are capable of knowing what's wrong, it just takes a lot more harder work. But if you don't you are left with an adult who is locked up due to biting people who say no to them as an example.

Your child shouldn't be made to feel unsafe, and while it's ok to show compassion to the other child it ultimately not your problem. Fight your child's corner and make the school acknowledge it. It would benefit the child with SEN and your own long term if you do. So go to the governor's and LA and if that doesn't work ofstead and the media. If they have taken this child they have accepted a duty of care to help him, and the children he comes into contact with. Don't let them fob you off.

Best of luck xxx

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there. A classic case of divide and conquor. We are arguing amongst ourselves and the fact is that Sen and education in general is massively underfunded.

im not sure how to post links so don’t know if this will work but Mumsnet have a promoted post about the Sen green paper review where you can post questions for an mp. Everyone who is effected by Sen should be asking questions on this whether you have an Sen child or because your nt child is being disadvantaged by Sen children in their school. There are a lot of proposals in the green paper which look like it will be harder for Sen children to get support which is only going to make matters worse for all in mainstream schools.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/sponsored_qas/4538201-do-you-have-questions-on-the-special-educational-needs-and-disability-send-review-ask-minister-for-children-and-families-will-quince-mp

@Indoctro 😂😂😂😂😂 I'm assuming sarcasm re living off carers yes?

Ignore the shit show this has turned into you need to push the school to protect your child.

And for those condemning these violent Sen children, you are aware a Sen child is far more likely to be bullied than be a bully. Probably by your little darlings who are brainwashed with all your vitriol .

I found this when mine was in mainstream. Not saying this is the case for the op or others in the thread but there are nt children who will wind Sen kids up on purpose because they know they will blow and get the blame. Often Sen kids are not very articulate in explains what has happened. Luckily when this happened to us there were some quiet sensible kids in ds’s class who reported back to the teacher what was actually happening.

I think many people on this thread are forgetting we could be talking about young children here, some even as young as 4/5 in primary school.
They are talking about them like they are thugs hanging around on street corners mugging people. Not extremely vulnerable children who lash out because of something related to their disability.

It isn't ok if children are being hurt in school, it shouldn't be normalised and it absolutely should be dealt with appropriately. But I just can't agree with demonising already vulnerable kids and removing them from the education system. All children concerned should be protected and supported.

School should be asked to provide evidence that children are being safe guarded and, parents should ask to see risk assessments and proof that they are being implemented. Take it to the head, the trust, the local authority, the press if needs be.

Parents of SEN children have to constantly badger everyone throughout the education system to advocate for their kids and make sure they are getting everything they are entitled to. So perhaps if parents of children who have been hurt should also get involved and be fighting from the other side.

Ultimately the government's failure to support SEN affects everyone in a school.

The vitriol is unreal.

Over the years I've heard many parents making smart arse comments about children with SEN. Not violent children by the way. Just children that find things difficult and present differently to other children.

I've heard all sorts of shit

How they've told their kids not to play with them

Not invited them to parties

How they get special treatment and get their own TA and their child should be getting the same (no reason for this. But they just think it's unfair)

This is a great response from the school, exactly what they should be doing. I really hope this helps both your son and the other child.

I know your thread has been somewhat derailed by lots of arguing about who's fault it is but at the of the day all everyone wants is for their children to be safe and supported appropriately at school.

@Whiskeylover86 this is a great post.

@Morph22010 I think you've confused me with another poster-I've not mentioned home school.
Really glad your boy is doing well in a more appropriate setting for his needs and that you are now hopeful for the future.

@Shoebie thank you so much for the sensible and balanced contributions you've made to this thread. Lots and lots of parents of SEN children are in very desperate situations, with an ever increasing wait for proper assessment and even once diagnosed left without appropriate support. It's just not good enough, for any of our children, to be in this situation in mainstream schools.

My dd isn't physically violent at school, thankfully, but she's quite controlling, particularly when anxious. She's only 5. We've fought and fought for any support we can without a formal diagnosis so far and thankfully because she masks a lot, it's at home where her worst behaviour comes out. I'd rather that than the alternative, but at times I've even considered reporting ourselves to social services, thinking there might actually then be an intervention. She has drawn blood from my neck through pinching and scratching, she has thrown heavy items at my head and she's destroyed our possessions. I'd still rather it happen this way than have her being violent at school to teachers and other children.

We're now coming at management of her behaviour from a totally different angle and it's really helping improve all our lives, but we've had to plead for help from many, many professionals (including school, where problems have been minimal) to give our family hope, and give our dd the chance to live a normal life and realise her potential. Because she's 'high functioning', she's still young and we've been able to intervene early, the chances are we can help her adjust and develop some of the social skills she needs to thrive. So many families of SEN children are in crisis. We are extremely lucky in comparison.

I was referring to where you put this “not sure if you missed the part where I said I have an SEN child. I certainly wouldn't continue to send him to an educational setting where he was able to violently attack other children. Maybe I'm in some kind of weird minority. It's not fair on ANY of the children but yes, I would put other children and their right not to be attacked first to be honest”

maybe I’ve put two and two together and made 5 but if you are not going to continue to send him to an educational setting where he was able to violently attack other children and also not home school him then where would you be sending him?

@ellie21 That sounds like a much more positive response by the school. I hope their efforts bear fruit and the violence stops.

Please let us know how things pan out (on a separate thread if this one doesn't calm down!) and I'm sure there are plenty of posters ready to rally for you if it isn't plain sailing you end up needing more support.