Distraught and need advice regarding 9yo DD

[DistraughtMother]

Hi, I don’t know where to start really and posting here for traffic. I can’t even believe I am writing this, I cannot stop crying and can’t think straight so I need some wise mn’s to help me please.
Firstly I will start that I have been stupid and irresponsible and too trusting to let DD have a phone, it was purely to stay in contact with friends on WhatsApp and nothing else.. and here is why you don’t give 9 year olds a phone😞
Tonight I was taking funny photos on DDs phone with her younger sibling, and came to delete some. When doing so it stated “moved to recycle bin”, clicked around and found the recycle bin. In here is a video of her (9 year old) (male) friend, who has videod himself talking to the camera asking DD to show her private parts, the camera has then moved downwards towards his trousers and I deleted it permantly, was not watching anymore!
My DD, my 9 yo daughter, has videod her privates and sent it too him. She was up in her room this evening when I saw this, I went in and calmly explained what I had seen, and tried to discuss boundaries and how serious and inappropriate it is what these 2 have done. I told her how much I loved her and that I was worried for her, she kept telling me she didn’t want to do it but she felt like she had to.
I don’t know where to go from here. I don’t feel I explained It well enough, I tried knocking at the boys mums house but all curtains were shut and no answer. DD got really emotional when I said I’d need to speak to the school as I don’t want them anywhere near each other, she cried and begged me not to tell anyone, but I have to don’t I? School can alert appropriate authorities who can talk/explain/find out things in a more child/sensitive manner. I can’t just brush this under the carpet and pretend it never happened. I’m worried about approaching the boys mum on the school run in the morning as she’s known for ‘well it wasn’t my child’s fault, they are not to blame’ etc. Please be kind, my tummy is doing somersaults and my throat hurts from so much crying.

Please, any parent who is thinking of caving into pester power because their primary age child wants a phone, READ THIS! This is the main reason why young children should not be allowed on the internet. At best, kids should not be on phones or tablets because there are better toys out there for them to play with, and they just become screen gawping, antisocial zombies with no social skills. At worst, they can be exposed to true horrors that they are simply too immature not to be swept along with.
This (by the sound of it) otherwise nice and normal family is now going to be involved with police, safeguarding teams, possibly for weeks or months, people you don't expect 'normal families' to ever have to deal with. All because the kid wanted a phone. DON'T. This mother has now learned the hard way. Don't let the next child/family be yours.

Two nine year old showing each other their genitals - it's completely normal and has always happened. Children are curious about these things. With mobile phone technology, I think it's unfortunate that now a video record can be made by children, but you've deleted it. It's why 9 is probably a bit young for a mobile. I don't see any need for further drama - police, NSPCC, safeguarding teams seems to me to be right over the top as a reaction. The more drama that's made of it, the the more unsettling it will be for the children in both the short and long term.

I'm really sorry this has happened to your daughter OP.

My 9 year old has an iPad but we restrict her content and she only has a few friends on her contacts. We've also restricted apps so no 9+ apps can be downloaded and any app even free has to be 'requested'.

I'm 32 and my parents when I was 10/11 had no idea about the internet and I had a computer in my room at that age. Unfortunately, it went as well as you'd expect.

In my case it was repeated and with several people and add to the fact I had been in abusive relationships after, I've never quite coped with boundaries and intimacy as an adult.

So I urge this as being a one off you both take action and don't blame your daughter, because when she's an adult and realised what she did then your reaction will shape whether she sees herself as someone who wasn't supervised enough but luckily had a lucky escape or whether she's disgusted in herself.

I know my parents were to blame but I can never bring myself to see it that way, I feel I should've 'known better' despite having no idea what I was doing at the time.

Best of luck OP 💐

Not quite the same but last year during lockdown a friend/class mate sent my Y6 dd and 2 others a gruesome video of what appeared to be a man cutting his penis off! The girl had said something like ooh this is horrid so thankfully dd didn’t watch it but gave it to me. I was shocked. I don’t really know the girl or her family so couldn’t approach them directly but I went straight to the school. Discussed it with the head teacher and class teacher who were also very shocked. SS and I think the police were involved. My dd was referred to SS too but we just received a letter saying it didn’t meet the threshold for intervention. The other child and her family however had a lot more input.
In my case it was right to involve the school, and I think so for you too. This boy could potentially be being exposed to some kind of abuse, it is a classic sign when a child shows inappropriate sexual behaviour. The school will know what steps to take. It may be innocent, it may not but either way the appropriate authorities need to examine it to protect both your daughter and the boy concerned.
As mentioned before, the NSPCC have some good resources about appropriate behaviour. www.nspcc.org.uk/keeping-children-safe/support-for-parents/pants-underwear-rule/

Smartphones are THE worst things to give to children.
I saw a creepy comment on you tube once, ( 2011 ish) and looked at the profile of the person who made the comment.
He has “ Saved” videos and one was of a child who was doing “ Gym” in a bedroom with zero adults about.
I couldn’t watch.
clearly a webcam that had been set up by an adult.
The comments were sickening.
” This (Child) will do anything you like”

I reported it immediately to You Tube, but it was extremely worrying that a child was clearly being exploited.

Definitely inform police, this boy of 9 yrs might be being asked to sell images?

A “ Naughty “ girl at our Infant/junior school used to talk about things to us ( classmates) that I now know recognise as serious sexual abuse.

No real advice to offer but just sending a massive hug as this sounds so traumatic for you. No judgement but lots of love - I hope you get it all sorted.

OP, I think you’re loading too much blame on yourself because you’re adopting an “adult’s eye view” not a “child’s eye view” to this - as you should. However, if you look at this from your daughter’s perspective, and ask why she didn’t speak to you - she may well have mentally categorised this under the “quite naughty but funny” section in her mind, like knocking on doors and running away. She is likely not worldly enough to realise all the potentially serious implications. I sent the link for NSPCC’s suggestions of dealing with this issue; they have a section on discussing it with children. If you wanted an anonymous person to chat with online to work through your feelings, feel free to PM me - I’m a paediatrician, and although this isn’t my area, I get asked about all these types of issues by friends who think it is, so try to keep myself fairly informed!

I am not minimising your problem and personally I hate seeing young children with phones. But at about that age we used to have a lot of freedom on a farm and play on haystacks etc and remember playing doctors and nurses with some local kids and similar curiosity. When I told my dad ( in all innocence) he gave me a right telling off . Really Angry with me and neighbours parents were involved as well . Never played that game again .

Do not approach childs mum
speak to school and contact nspca for advice

This wasn’t online, though- And doubt anyone was filming.

What is so concerning with online stuff is that once the images are out of your control, It’s like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Who knows who this boy has shared them to, sharing is the huge concern.

FloorWipes I am glad that you were not unduly affected by your childhood experience, but you never forgot it. I also need to point out that so called” low grade” offences can and do escalate. For example Sarah Everards killer had already committed several of this kind of offence before going on to murder her. I hope that we can trust police in the future to take these crimes seriously and for many children and women, they seriously mess us up.

You may not think you are minimising the issue but you are missing the point that OP's daughter has sent a video to the boy, which can be sent to other people, stored in other places, and is in itself illegal. Possessing the video of OP's daughter (and of the other child) is a crime. 70% of child sexual abuse imagery found on the internet is self-generated - i.e. photographed or filmed by children themselves.

A recent very worrying statistic is that half of 10 years olds have a tiktok account.

There's all sorts of weird stuff on there, porn, suicide, risk-taking challenges that could compromise your health.

If she has a tiktok account get her off it. And block tiktok from her phone as well as you can access it via the internet without an account.

It's a vile platform. No doubt this boy has seen porn.

www.mamamia.com.au/is-tiktok-safe-for-kids/

Another recent statistic is that porn is now increasingly seen by kids from year 4 upwards. Guess where they see it? Tiktok.

I agree with the escaltion of all of these offences. Most physical - sexual abuse only gets caught at the end where the person doing it has become so blaze.

I have had a few friends report weird expierences from guys using dating apps -
porn language very early into dating, graphic sexual acts they never had with a previous partner - Sometimes though I think it is so normalised that these guys do not even realise its weird?

I think you do need to speak to the little boys mum as this video or any photos that might a have been sent are still on the boys phone, so they need to be removed permanently in front of you so you know they are not there for anyone else to see or share too.

I think you need to talk to the school but not overreact. This is about children learning about whats appropriate and what isnt for their own safety and to avoid abuse or things going too far. These are both children at an age where they will be curious, but theyre also vulnerable and naive. Its not about her or her friend being in trouble hopefully, but about teaching them about other peoples boundaries, consent, and the dangers of smartphones.
You saying you cant believe you brought her up to do these things is missing the point. Yes it needs to be taken seriously, and nipped in the bud, but also remember that children are curious, impulsive, easily led and do stupid stuff.
Speak to the school. Take the smartphone off her and dont shame her

You need to stop blaming yourself. It's happened, blaming yourself will distract you from doing what your DD needs you to do now and - I mean this kindly - it puts the focus on you and not your DD and what she needs. Focus on the here and now and what DD needs. I know easier said than done but you really need to focus on next steps.

The school safeguarding team absolutely need to know about this and they will be able to advise. As others have said it is a safeguarding issue and this type of behaviour can be a red flag for abuse so it absolutely needs looking into.

With your DD you need to try and remain calm and not let her know you've been crying etc. Everyone makes mistakes, this is a mistake that she can learn from and that has not hugely harmed her. She said she 'didn't want to' - have a discussion about listening to her gut, that saying 'no' is always acceptable and if boys try and pressure her to do something she doesn't want to do they're not good people and best avoided. Talk about consent.

You can do this.

How awful for you both.
Firstly, take that phone to cash converters. When she starts secondary school and travelling alone, buy her a very simple phone with no internet / whatsapp. That sort of phone can wait until 16+. Primary and secondary children are not mature enough for it.
Talk to the school, NSPCC and police.
How does she feel about seeing him at school? Is changing schools or home ed until secondary an option? Rumours can spread like wildfire, she may need some time before facing him again. Poor girl.
It might be worth looking at a few puberty books with her, I know a few cover boundaries as part of it.

People saying this is normal and fine for 9 year olds, how are you sure there isn’t an adult telling the boy to gather these videos? This type of child abuse increased hugely during lockdowns.

An abuser manipulates a child into sharing an intimate photo/video, then says ‘If you don’t get your baby sister/cousin/friend to make more I will share this with your parents and your life will be destroyed.’

Self created abuse pyramid scheme.

Abusers are everywhere and one can have hundreds of victims.

Make sure she knows 'no' and 'because I said so' are valid answers.
She doesn't need to be polite and say no thank you. She doesnnt need to explain why.
If she is asked to do something and she doesn't want too, no is perfectly fine.
And make sure she knows she can always talk to you and ask for advice on how to deal with these things.

This is not normal behaviour for 9 year olds. Some will be in the beginning of puberty, even so, it Is not normal. At 9 I certainly wasn't playing games where we flash each other!!
What is normal is playing with dolls, complex skipping and hand clapping games, football and pushing themselves high on swings. They are very much children.
It seems it's getting younger and younger that explained behaviour is 'normal'.

Sexual not explained *

This ⬆️

I remember being in year 5 in the 90s and when getting changed for PE a lad in my class asked myself and a friend if we wanted to see his willy . We said yes, had a look and then got on with our lives. It wasn't a big deal - esp as I had a younger brother who hated wearing clothes so I got to see a lot of willy pretty much every day.

If I was in your shoes I wouldn't have wanted my daughter to feel any extra upset or any shame around this. I would have calmly explained it isn't appropriate to send these types of videos as a school child and why, which is why she felt uncomfortable and she should always trust her gut. If she didn't include her face I'd also praise this and explain why this is good practice. I'd then ask her how she wanted to proceed e.g me keep the phone, does she want to come to me in future if she is feeling uncomfortable and we discuss her options for replying etc.

I'd mention to the school what has happened and possibly the mum but in a way that was simply sharing a fact, not asking for anything to change or any action being taken.

I am conscious that I used to be a youth worker, and then a teacher, so I am used to having conversations of a sexual nature with young people. I am aware its difficult to be calm and rational when you have had a shock and hope you are feeling more settled now.

I don’t think anyone said it’s fine. The child should be advised properly and unsupervised phone use withdrawn.

But also no need for police and hysteria.

Two separate issues here. 1. Kids showing each other their private parts. Totally normal. Nothing to get upset or worried about. Natural curiosity. 2. The fact that a 9 yr old has a naked video of your dd. You need to ascertain whether this is just because that’s how kids communicate these days or if there’s a more sinister motivation. If it’s the former, make sure the video has been deleted and not forwarded on anywhere. Chat to the kids and explain why it’s not a good idea and make sure it doesn’t happen again. If it’s the latter and you get the impression that there’s a motive other than childish curiosity, then you need to go to the police……for the sake of your dd and the boy. Don’t beat yourself up. This happens more often than you think. Your dd (and probably the boy) is not evil or wrong or sex crazed or anything else that you might hear! It’s not going to ruin her life. Please don’t make her feel ashamed. She’s 9. We all do dumb things at that age.