Distraught and need advice regarding 9yo DD

[DistraughtMother]

Hi, I don’t know where to start really and posting here for traffic. I can’t even believe I am writing this, I cannot stop crying and can’t think straight so I need some wise mn’s to help me please.
Firstly I will start that I have been stupid and irresponsible and too trusting to let DD have a phone, it was purely to stay in contact with friends on WhatsApp and nothing else.. and here is why you don’t give 9 year olds a phone😞
Tonight I was taking funny photos on DDs phone with her younger sibling, and came to delete some. When doing so it stated “moved to recycle bin”, clicked around and found the recycle bin. In here is a video of her (9 year old) (male) friend, who has videod himself talking to the camera asking DD to show her private parts, the camera has then moved downwards towards his trousers and I deleted it permantly, was not watching anymore!
My DD, my 9 yo daughter, has videod her privates and sent it too him. She was up in her room this evening when I saw this, I went in and calmly explained what I had seen, and tried to discuss boundaries and how serious and inappropriate it is what these 2 have done. I told her how much I loved her and that I was worried for her, she kept telling me she didn’t want to do it but she felt like she had to.
I don’t know where to go from here. I don’t feel I explained It well enough, I tried knocking at the boys mums house but all curtains were shut and no answer. DD got really emotional when I said I’d need to speak to the school as I don’t want them anywhere near each other, she cried and begged me not to tell anyone, but I have to don’t I? School can alert appropriate authorities who can talk/explain/find out things in a more child/sensitive manner. I can’t just brush this under the carpet and pretend it never happened. I’m worried about approaching the boys mum on the school run in the morning as she’s known for ‘well it wasn’t my child’s fault, they are not to blame’ etc. Please be kind, my tummy is doing somersaults and my throat hurts from so much crying.

Definitely police asap. Not to get the other kid in trouble but to ensure that the video of your daughter doesn't end up any further than his phone (and the video of him too).

It’s a pity you deleted it. You should be prepared for the school and/or police to investigate your family as well as the boy’s family. I’m guessing there will be automatic referral to social services too. Be prepared for the other mum to blame your daughter and say she must have instigated it. Can the video be retrieved? Hopefully it’s on his phone. I’m really sorry you’re going through this.

one of the most ridiculous comments I’ve ever read on Mumsnet. No it absolutely is NOT normal for a 9 year old to ask another 9 year old if they can see their private area.

OP I would contact the school immediately.

You sound very much like someone who knows very little about children 🙄

So much histrionics.

children recover much more quickly if the adults around them are calm and collected. The way difficult situations are managed can be more traumatic than the event itself. So whatever you are feeling, be careful to keep that from your daughter.

Hi OP, long reply I’m afraid, but I hope it will be helpful! First, I can see why you’re upset, as we have become very conscious of exploitation, pornography etc as a society, and as adults, we know the seriousness of sharing an indecent image of a child. However, I think it’s also important to remember that both children are likely to have thought this is funny, daring, and “rude”. Most 9 year olds still think “privates” are hilarious, as the next stage on from “poo” humour. They may also be beginning to explore body curiosity. I think it could potentially be a lot more upsetting in the long term if you catastrophise. When I was about the same age, I remember my friends and I doing the “show me yours, I’ll show you mine” game. We searched all the books in our houses for “rude” pictures (the family health encyclopaedia cross section of Sexual Intercourse was our favourite!) to whisper and giggle about them. I remember a game of dares where everyone shrieked with laughter about the “kiss on the willy” dare. If we had had smart phones at that age, we would have certainly taken “rude” photos and relished how grown up and naughty we were being, without understanding how innocent we were! Drunken conversations with adult friends over the years have reassured me that we were very normal!
I’d try to minimise fuss and fallout. It may be sensible to phone NSPCC and ask if they have any advice - I expect this is a common issue. On the one hand, you absolutely don’t want images of your dd, and potentially her friend, hanging around on any phones; on the other, you don’t want this snowballing out of proportion. You also don’t want to make your daughter feel that bodies, sex, etc is somehow dirty and depraved, you don’t want her feeling ashamed. You just want her to know that this is much more risky than she thinks, and that under no circumstances should she ever feel pressured to do this type of thing.
If you were to speak to school safeguarding, I’d be inclined to say that the kids thought it would be funny to send rude pictures without realising the implications, and what would they recommend you do. They may want to do an online safety refresher!
If you know the other child’s parents, and have a decent relationship with them, it may be appropriate to let them know what’s happened directly, so they can deal with his phone, but I’d be cautious about this, and if in doubt, seek further advice from NSPCC or safeguarding.
I’ll add a strong disclaimer that if you do get any vibes from talking to your daughter that there was something more sinister going on than kids experimenting, I would definitely and urgently speak with the safeguarding team. I’d talk to her openly, and ask her if this felt jokey or upsetting at the time - also bearing in mind that 9 year olds will often use the line “they made me do it” to get out of trouble!
Try not to feel too bad about this. I know many parents don’t agree with kids having phones, but it’s very difficult to avoid exposure - that line about porn is a standard one from online safety courses - now, many of these courses will point out that even if your kid doesn’t have a phone, they will have friends who do, some of whom will have older siblings and/or lax supervision. I live in an area of UK with 3 tier schooling, and all the kids have a mobile by the end of their first year in middle school (year 5). It may be better to teach her about the hazards and about respect for women and herself, rather than not allow her a phone. This has the added bonus of encouraging her to confide in you. Just as (something else to look forward to) when she’s older, ensuring she knows about safe sex may be better that promoting abstinence! Good luck, and have a large gin!

OP you are not a bad mum.
yes it is totally normal for kids to explore. Back in the 80’s it was you show me yours and I’ll show you mine. It was extremely common and many adult friends I have spoken to in later life at some point played doctors and nurses or similar when they were kids. It was innocent giggling type stuff as a child below 10. I don’t mean touching or anything just showing.
Anyone who thinks this didn’t go on, hasnt asked peers or is in denial because I can assure you in decades gone by it did. Look on any child development website and this normal to compare differences in girls / boys bodies at this age.
However with the advent of smart phones this is taken to another level as it’s being recorded. Your daughter has done nothing wrong. She wasn’t to know what was so wrong about videoing this as she was asked to and he did it first. You have been a bit naive by giving her a smartphone but obviously you didn’t expect this so understandably you are shocked. Please don’t beat yourself up over and over. The video needs to be removed and the boy needs to be spoken to. But honestly girls and boys have been doing this sort of thing since the dawn of time - just usually not with a smart phone involved.

I totally agree with all of this and the first section is pretty much what I wrote - my experience exactly

Absolutely DO NOT make your daughter seem intentionally complicit in this & downplay this boys role by telling anyone 'the kids thought it would be funny...'

You need to take that phone to the police, explain you watched a small part then deleted because they can recover it & DO NOT so much as imply your daughter thought it was okay.

Women & girls are frequently disbelieved, or told they are somehow part of the problem.
Leave it for the Police/Social Services to make those decisions & don't help others dismiss what has happened by ever saying your daughter thought it was okay.

According to your original post, she didn't think that, she just didn't know how to say no.
Stand up for her now because there will be enough people happy to blame her with that old "boys will be boys/we've all done it etc..." crap & she needs you at her back.

Ffs you are criminalising a 9yo, give your head a wobble

you cannot criminalise a 9 year old.
the age of criminal responsibility is 10.

Hello OP
i would check with her that she hasn’t sent her photo to other kids and that it’s not circulating on a group chat that she is aware of.

most of the advice here is excellent.

I'm so uncomfortable with young kids having smartphones, unfortunately they all seem to now though

Absolutely. I cannot believe there are zero restrictions. So dangerous.

Peer pressure is very strong.
At every age. We want to be liked and fit in. It can be difficult to say no.

The police are trained to handle these things. To get the photos removed if they are elsewhere etc.

Show me yours was fairly common back in the day. It was a quick flash and everyone was giggling. After that, I thought boys had cow udders for the longest time!
Of course there wasn't any internet, photos, and videos to pass around.

Check if its still in the cloud . Go to the boys mum and get it ALL deleted.. make sure it isnt forwarded. This could hunt your dd for the rest of her life.

And parents need to teach their kids to never ever send nudes/private parts online. Yes I know our childhood was different
But a phone allows them freedom that they aren't ready for. Exposes them to porn etc etc

Your dd needs more then her phone being taken off of her. You really dropped the ball here. Sorry but you need go do everything humanly possible to right this terrible wrong.

And what the fuck is wrong with this boy she was sending the video to? Get the police involved asap!!!! I am scared for your dd reading this :(

OK, first of all stay calm. It's not a disaster, don't let your daughter think it is.

Yes, report it to the school. You can go to police for advice, the police won't be able to approach the boy without parental consent, I think, became he is under the age of criminal responsibility, and it's usually considered intimidation. I'd probably let the school tell the family of the other child, you don't need to listen to them blaming your daughter. You know your child is your responsibility and their child is their responsibility.

The main issue is that she was able to be coerced by this other child. It's really common, although most parents think their kid wouldn't do something like that and would come and tell them if someone asked for nude photos - most of those parents are wrong. Kids are easily convinced in the moment by someone they like that these things are a good idea. If it helps, I'm a social worker, Ive worked with abused kids, I use protective behaviours language everyday with my own kids, yet my 12 year old did something similar (probably a bit more graphic.) It was a horrible experience.

Just make sure your dd is not ashamed. That is the most important thing. She's still the smart, good, responsible kid you know, but you both made a mistake and you both learnt a lesson. It's not a disaster.

My rules WRT devices - no devices in bedrooms, bathroom or toilet. If they want to listen to music or audio books then get a Bluetooth speaker and make a spot outside their bedroom door for the phone to sit. No social media until at least 14. And a condition of having the phone/ device is that they don't expect privacy. I will check any and all aps, messages etc at random intervals (and if her behaviour seems "off" then that is a prompt to check.) If they want to have a private conversation with a friend they can do it the old fashioned way, face to face, or by passing notes in class like we did. 😅

I didn’t even know she had his number, how did I raise her to think this would be ok to do?

You didn't think this would happen so early, it's that simple.

You don't teach a 3 month old to use a knife and fork, you don't teach a 2 year old to cross the road.

This has blindsided you. As I'm sure it would most parents.

Talk to the school, this is a safeguarding issue.

I'm not sure on the 'delete everything' advice, yes delete from the cloud but keep the phone just in case the police are involved. As your DD is under 10 she can't be prosecuted and the same for the boy but they can be spoken to.

You are doing a great job not judging your DD, continue with that, it is a problem for both of you and you will face it and deal with it together (well as far as she is concerned, you are still the adult).

Stop kicking yourself, you are doing a great job.

Rather than remove the phone completely I'd get her an old fashioned one with calls and texts only. She can tell people at school she broke her old one and you won't buy her a new one - you don't want her telling her best friend about this and it being the talk of the school.

OP, I'm not going to give advice about the situation as lots more knowledgeable posters have given you excellent opinions already. I just wanted to go back to how you are feeling.

A few months back I found myself in a situation with 12yr old DD. She's autistic so quite vulnerable and very easily led. She's home educated and has been developing artwork of a particular anime style and imo, is quite talented. I agreed to let her use my TikTok account to share her artwork. This was on the very strict proviso that no private chats with anyone, only comments on threads. DD agreed. She was posting her creations and getting lots of likes and attention. I was monitoring it - noticed she'd started putting pronouns and LGBTQ tags on her work, so we had a discussion. My concerns were that she didn't understand was she was referring to, and that it would attract a more adult audience. She'd copied the popular hash tags on other similar anime posts. Plus, this particular anime brand has quite a lot of same sex relationships (which is fine, no issues with her depicting or reading about that).

I never use TikTok so I totally screwed up as I didn't know where the DMs were kept. I also trusted her 100% to keep her word. We're really close so I had no reason to doubt her. Late one night I had her phone - I can't remember why, something trivial - and I noticed a screenshot in the photo gallery. It was a DM. Then I found a couple more screenshots in her photo gallery - I went to TikTok and sure enough she'd been DM'ing someone, but had deleted most of the history. This person was another girl apparently 9 yrs old- but very, very clearly not 9 yrs old. Thankfully no graphic photos or conversation but my DD referred to this person as her "girlfriend" and they were having conversations about meeting up!!! When I looked further, it seems as if this other person had pursued her - had changed their profile picture to "I love DD" etc. Lots of tagging her in videos of romantic gestures and "I'm going to do this for you when we meet DD" etc.

I felt honestly like I was going to throw up. I thought that my DD would have ALWAYS told me, we're really close. I was absolutely gutted that she didn't talk to me about it. I'm very laid back and if she'd said she wanted to talk to someone, or that she'd been talking to someone, I wouldn't have gone bat shit, we'd have had a conversation. And she knows this. It's the deceit and lying that I was the most gutted about. I felt for a few weeks that maybe our relationship wasn't what I thought it was. I felt really really sad.

It did feel like grooming. I have no idea if this other individual is an adult or just a teen. But they're certainly not 9 yrs old!! I have had so many conversations with DD about grooming and other people sending inappropriate DMs, and we'd talked about people not always being who they claimed to be. She's always told me before if someone weird has messaged her through Roblox etc, so I was so certain that she wouldn't do something like this.

Also, I know I'm to blame for trusting her with TikTok. I was very divided about whether to allow her to use my account, but I thought just sharing artwork via my account was harmless. And it did really encourage her to develop her skills and confidence - but I can't trust her now. TikTok is blocked on our router, all passwords to my account changed and I've put a ton of extra security on her phone/iPad because she's lost my trust. We had no raised voices at any time, we've talked about this calmly and she accepts the consequences. I've told her that I feel really sad about taking away something she's been enjoying but I can't trust her right now, so I don't have any choice. It's not a "punishment" but a consequence of her actions.

My DD did apologise and give me a hug. She says she doesn't know why she didn't talk to me. In one of the DMs she says she isn't ready to tell her mum that she's gay. I said to her, why do you think I'd be bothered by that??? (For context, I have a few very close gay male friends and she absolutely knows that I have zero issues around people being straight/gay etc). I said that I felt sad that she felt that she couldn't talk to me, and that I never wanted her to ever feel like that. And that I love her unconditionally and there's nothing wrong with liking boys, girls, both or neither. There's no "wrong".

With a bit of time that's passed, I think it was just about DD trying to develop her identity and was less about not being able to talk to me, and more just about trying to figure herself out. Also, adult themes are excruciating for youngsters to talk about, especially when it's about them personally. My DD always has and does tell me everything about other stuff - I think she just didn't know how to bring this subject up.

The reason, OP for this very very long post is just to say I know the circumstances are very different, but I went through very similar emotions to you. Lots of private tears. I kept conversations with my DD very matter of fact, calm, and loving.

My DD sometimes struggles to raise subjects, so we have WhatsApp now. If she wants to tell me something that's difficult face to face, she messages me. That's helped a lot. I know that's different for you OP as you've removed her phone but if DD doesn't want to talk directly to you, could you have a worry box or something where she can write down things that she wants you to know but finds difficult to say?

I hope you're OK. I know how awful this feels and all I can say is that you will get over this, and it's not a reflection on your relationship with her. You handled it really well by staying calm, and that's brilliant. Whatever route you opt to take, you will get past this - it's just the shock right now. And DD will have learnt that she needs to come and talk to you, even if it's a difficult conversation. That's the message I'd be trying to reinforce to her, and figuring out how she can do that should a similar thing ever happen in the future (even if it's years down the line).

You need to tell the school authorities about it and you need to sit with your daughter and tell her something about what she deed,is too early for her to have a phone,hope she is not on social media platform because I'm wondering where she learnt that

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit. Let’s not demonise this little boy. If it wasn’t for his parents’ and OP’s extremely lax parenting this would have been no more serious than the ‘you show me yours, I’ll show you mine’ scenario that was so commonplace back in my day. Kids are curious, it doesn’t mean the kid is some sort of sexual deviant. Obviously OP you need to speak to the school so that they can ensure that the video is deleted and make his parents aware, so that the bloody idiots will hopefully take his phone off him!

I am going to disagree with others about taking her phone off her. The message you give her is that if you find out things she will lose something important to her. She then will continue to avoid telling you things in the future. To be your biggest issue is not the phone - it’s that your daughter felt she didn’t want to do something and she didn’t feel she could come and talk to you about it. Instead she felt pressured and gave into that pressure. You have something in your relationship with her that needs tweaking so she feels she can come to you in future. If you take her phone it’s lose lose lose for her. She’s been abused by this boy, you are taking her communication link with friends so effectively punishing her for being abused and then damaging the relationship between you and her as she will stay secretive to avoid similar punishments in the future.
Sit her down, tell her you are letting her keep her phone on the basis if she ever feels a message is not right to speak to you about it before she responds and you’ll work things out together. Tell her you will never be angry about what she asks you and she will not get in trouble. Children need to practise with social media and learning right and wrong with guidance from us.

I totally agree with this.

The issue is not the phone at all really. It's that you're DD thinks a male friend has a right to see her private parts if he wants to.