To remind you that Rainbows, Brownies and Guides are mixed sex?

[KatieAlcock]

I have settled my case with Girlguiding and I may now take my daughter to Brownies, but it's been a long hard slog.
If you have a daughter in Guiding, you do have the right to ask for single sex accommodation for her. In fact, I'd say if you don't, it's a bit worrying.
If you are a leader, you can also say you will only share a room with a female.
Parents and leaders should get decent clear communications about what they are letting themselves in for and their rights, but we shall see if that transpires.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10765045/I-outcast-shunned-like-criminal-just-wanting-Girl-Guides-safe.html

Understand Katie's concern and well done so far!

"It used to be rainbows, brownies and guides for girls.
Beavers, cubs and scouts for boys.
Venture scouts was mixed.

no issues."

We looked at the brownies/guides for my daughter and it was mostly baking, crafts charity work and things along a similar line. It may not be the same everywhere but friends have experienced similar.
Scouts was archery, useful practical skills, hikes, orienteering, kayaking in the summer every week in the holidays. She joined Scouts, and we were grateful she was able to do so..

Many congratulations @KatieAlcock - such an important stand to make.

Thank you for not backing down on this... My daughter won't be joining until they change their stance

Thank you Katie.

Thank you Katie, so much for your bravery in doing this. Let's hope this will mark an end to the lies and coercion of girls to accept male bodies in their overnight accommodation and other spaces they would expect to be single sex.

Girlguiding has been lying to parents and children and denying parents the ability to consent (or not) to mixed sex accommodation etc. They have been denying parents the right to safeguard their children.

It has been deception and lies, lies, lies.

They know most people think 'girl' and 'woman' relates to sex not gender.

They have also been actively discriminating against parents and children with the protected characteristic of religion for whom single SEX (not gender) spaces are required within their religion.

So pretty much more exclusive than inclusive, really.

I loved being a Brownie and Guide but - because of the shoddy safeguarding and the lies - my daughters haven't joined.

I don't think that the organisation lying about something as fundamental and important for safeguarding as biological sex is a very good example.

I'd be delighted to place my girls in Katie Alcock's care of course, and I appreciate many leaders are fighting the good fight, but the overall message has been that the ability of girls (biological females) to say 'no' isn't important and will be denied in favour of the wants of biological males. So, it's a no from me.

Scouts have had absolutely huge problems with historic child sex abuse cases.
Paedophiles go where they can access children.
See also football coaches.

If you have a daughter in Guiding, you do have the right to ask for single sex accommodation for her. In fact, I'd say if you don't, it's a bit worrying.

I read the Daily Mail article OP and it seemed to say Girl Guides and Brownies will allow trans girls to share accommodation and changing rooms with girls. Please would you explain more? I feel muddled.

We walked away from Guiding when a leader basically really took a dislike to my eldest and took delight in reducing her to tears (at Rainbow age). Was made very clear that in our area if you don't enjoy being really "girlie" and painting your nails and decorating biscuits and colouring in that Guiding wasn't for you. Actually spoke about it with my own old Guide leader (I was in it right up to Young Leader level) and she was horrified about what had gone on and how DD had been treated (and DD is pretty much a mini-me in terms of the "can be a mild little sod" level).

That was just before the Trans agenda really hit Guiding, but we moved them over to Scouting and they have absolutely thrived - the trans gaslighting from GGUK was just confirmation to me that the organisation has really really lost their way now.

ODFOD.

I was sexually abused as a child. The only place I could go as a child that my abuser wasn't allowed/there weren't other males was Brownies and Guides. I'm absolutely fucking horrified that these days he could just ID as a girl and follow me there.

GirlGuiding have behaved appallingly over this issue.

To make major changes to their policy in a stealthy manner, to keep parents and guardians in the dark about the implications, indeed to have a policy of actively withholding information pertaining to issues of safeguarding from parents, is unforgivable in an organisation built around children.

But to then go on the attack when questioned about these changes, to punish, silence and expel members who want to discuss what they believe to be potentially dangerous safeguarding blindspots? Appalling.

I can’t believe their insurers were fully aware or onboard either?

It would seem that fealty to Stonewall and their misinterpretation of the law was far more important than the rights and safety of women and girls within the movement. Their website still links to organisations such as Mermaids, which I would suggest shows terrible judgement on their part.

Who would trust this organisation now? They’ve been forced to concede a little on ‘being open’ with parents. It’s hardly enough. They need need a change of leadership and organisation policy rewrite before I would entrust children into their care.

Is it just my phone or have all replies gone into italic?

I'm shocked to read that other mothers shunned Katie and cancelled playdates.

If this is true, what were they thinking?

@MissCrowley Both should have stayed single sex. It's important for young people to have sage spaces away from the opposite sex.

Mine has done that too. I thought I must have accidentally done something daft. Wouldn't be the first time

I don’t agree.
dd is in scouts. Its got slightly more girls than boys and it’s great. Each bring something to the mix. They are all friends and have each other’s backs. It’s really nice, they just see each other as another scout.

If you have a daughter in Guiding, you do have the right to ask for single sex accommodation for her. In fact, I'd say if you don't, it's a bit worrying.

Do you mean if you don't have the right to ask, it's a bit worrying?

Or do you mean if you don't ask, it's a bit worrying.

Agree with every word of this.

@Mumoftwoinprimary

You are really mid understanding why Scouts went mix sexed in the 90s. Scouts were not forced to go mix sex. They chose to. Because their membership was collapsing and it was the only way they could carry on

Sorry but that is completely wrong.

Firstly girls could join venture scouts from 1976
It became fully mixed from 1991
It became compulsory for all groups to accept girls from 2007

Scout membership was not collapsing at all. It has grown steadily since WWII (with a pandemic dip that it has nearly recovered from).

The full inclusion of girls and the introduction of Beavers (1982) were boosts to growth but its just incorrect to say it was the only way the could carry on.

Jesus Christ that is worrying.

My DD went from Brownies to Guides pre-pandemic. I wondered why other girls the same age (10) had switched to a different night (most go up to the guides on the same night as brownies was). A few weeks later I noticed a boy entering, but he had a coat on so assumed older brother/son of leader. At the end I saw him come out, coat off, in Guide top/necker.

I asked DD “is there a boy in your guides?”. She said she wasn’t sure - told me the name used (a girls name) but that she thought it was a boy. Next week I watched again - absolutely no mistake it was a teenage boy (mid puberty). We switched to an alternative night - perhaps the other girls who’d gone up at the same time had known about it (they are from big scouting families).

If Guides wants to be mixed sex it should be honest about it - it shouldn’t gaslight girls & their families by pretending they are single sex while allowing some males to join.

I want to add my thanks to @KatieAlcock for your tremendous bravery and tenacity in taking this on. It should never have been necessary but thank goodness you won.

I hope now @MissCrowley understands what the issue is.

The issue is/was the fact that GG chose to go mixed sex WITHOUT telling anyone, They simply redefined girl to include some boys. and even excludes transboys as they were no longer girls!

If GG had done as Scouts did there would have been far, far less of an issue.

And before you tell me I am wrong, read what they wrote after settling with Katie - it was ALL about clarity of communication. NOTHING about reviewing their policy of being a mixed sex organisation now, simply "Ooops, we'll promise to get better at telling parents something about the fact that some of our girls may be male bodied!"

So you see, you are coming at this from a direction nobody here took, least of all Katie!

I don't understand what the problem is. They're all children, why can't they share the same spaces? Really don't see how learning to tie a knot or make a pasta frame is put in jeopardy because the girl next to you is really a boy. Are you all freaked out by primary school too?

In other countries there is no gender segregated Scouts, it's weird that there are in this country .

To clarify Katie, I do not agree with how you have been treated by Guides, your friends, and the media. I think their rules on this issue are fine, but also, it's fine for you to have asked questions, and their response to your doing so is very bad.

Its not about sitting next to them. Its about sleeping in the same tent/sharing the same changing, washing etc spaces.