To remind you that Rainbows, Brownies and Guides are mixed sex?

[KatieAlcock]

I have settled my case with Girlguiding and I may now take my daughter to Brownies, but it's been a long hard slog.
If you have a daughter in Guiding, you do have the right to ask for single sex accommodation for her. In fact, I'd say if you don't, it's a bit worrying.
If you are a leader, you can also say you will only share a room with a female.
Parents and leaders should get decent clear communications about what they are letting themselves in for and their rights, but we shall see if that transpires.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10765045/I-outcast-shunned-like-criminal-just-wanting-Girl-Guides-safe.html

I have followed your case from the beginning. Well done and thank you Katie for persevering with this as long as you have

Its not about sitting next to them. Its about sleeping in the same tent/sharing the same changing, washing etc spaces.

Without parents being aware that these spaces will be mixed sex and with nobody knowing what, if any, risk assessment had been done (none apparently as all the girl guides were 'girls' even if not all female - according to GG themselves).

Had they done, as Scouts etc did, then there would be no need for asking the questions Katie did!

In other countries there is no gender segregated Scouts, it's weird that there are in this country.

Do you mean sex segregated?

And that would be absolutely fine as everybody knows they are mixed sex and all the usual safeguarding precautions are taken.

Can you not see the difference?

And so many adults - women a lot of them (some on this thread with their ‘what’s the big deal?’ bollocks) - don’t understand the bigger safeguarding picture… if I were being kind I’d put it down to them being utterly and pitifully thick but alas I think it’s pure, vile, good old fashioned misogyny.

Unhappily for people like them people like me are absolute terriers on this and won't let their shoulder shrugging go unchallenged.

I think the issue here is that many parents just assume that safeguarding means their children will be in single sex accommodation and use facilities for their sex. The word 'gender' has long been used and been accepted as meaning 'sex' however unfortunately this is definitely not the case because as we know they are very different.

Anyway my DD was a Brownie, never made it to Guides. It's such a shame that these organisations feel the need to effectively lie to parents. They do it because they know it is a safeguarding issue. Unfortunately unless there are more people like Katie it will take something terrible to happen for it all to be exposed.

Lastly, there are many people quoting scouts on here, I thought they had the same view regarding gender/sex. They seem to believe that gender is a protected characteristic under the EA, if they can't even get this right then there's no hope.

Actually, it's not just about sleeping and washing spaces. There's plenty of evidence to suggest girls thrive with access to single sex spaces. That they self censor, take second place and generally don't have the same confidence in some mixed sex spaces. For some girls, orgs like GG are invaluable.

Safeguarding when male leaders like Monica Sulley can publicly pose in fetish gear and silently be sharing sleeping quarters with tween and teen girls WITHOUT their parents knowing is a another matter entirely. Thank you Katie.

Thank you KatieAlcock for your courage and perseverance. You should never have been put in this position. GG have cheerfully thrown girls under the bus to appear 'inclusive'. Religious girls, sexually abused girls, or just girls who want or need a girls-only space, all unimportant in this definition of inclusive but as long as Stonewall are happy eh?

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist just because scouts is mixed sex doesnt mean they have dealt with the trans issue as several of us have pointed out upthread. The scout trans policy still allows young people to use the toilets, showers, facilities etc of the gender they identify with, not according to sex.

I cant believe the number of posters who see scouts as a viable alternative when their policy is exactly the same?!

Quite.

What an absolute shit show Girlguiding has made of this.

It is worrying that the Scouts are taking the same view, that gender trumps sex, but at least parents are aware that there are both boys and girls in the Scouts, and that leaders could be either female or male. In GG many parents will have been assuming until now that they could be quite sure their girls were in a single-sex organisation, with male helpers/leaders' sons in separate accommodation on residential trips. Now they know this can't be assumed and they won't be told if in fact another Guide is a teenage male or a Leader is an adult male.

I wonder if there's a possibility of a sex discrimination claim there. As a general rule, the Guides could lawfully turn a male away, but now it seems if a male says 'I identify as trans' they'll be welcomed in. This is surely discriminating against the males who might like to join but who acknowledge that they are male. And thus it is that single sex exemptions all over the place are placed under threat.

No, I mean gender. But it's neither sex nor gender segregated.

Of course I can see the difference. And I agree with you if what you are saying is that safeguarding measures need to account for possibly trans girls - but what would those measures look like? At brownies in particular, I don't see what harm it does to have trans girls there too. At guides when they're teen-agers I agree it's different, but not to a huge extent. Scouts might not share a tent but you can get there's loads of sneaking into tents they should not be in!

The trans leaders is another matter entirely.

@MissCrowley you sound like the type of person who says things like “but why didn’t she speak up” when girls/young woman are abused. Given the amount of women and girls abused and killed on a daily basis compared to men, we absolutely can demand single sex spaces for girls.

Sadly your “4 tiers of training” appears to be a waste of money.

1. I'm a volunteer so doesn't cost me anything but also I don't get paid to do it either
2. For your other comment I'm leaving the conversation because that's very below the belt. I was sexually abused as a child which I stipulated in my original comment if you'd actually bothered to read it.

I was interested in hearing others views and have enjoyed reading them and taking them on board, but I will not tolerate those kinds of comments as I find them upsetting and offensive.

FFS seriously! So it’s ok to have biological males in with the brownies but not the guides! Because paedophiles like older girls 🤦‍♀️

And boys /girls sneaking into each other’s tents is a world away from a biological male self-identifying as a woman sleeping in a tent with girls.

So the Scouts say that? I admit I haven't looked recently.

But at least everyone know they are mixed sex. It's a slightly better set up.

Next stop then, get both organisations to wake up to the reality of what they are doing.

Recent EHRC guidance and their next steps should start to make a difference.

Thankyou.

I use to help at a boys brigade and we has female leaders. When we went on camp we had separate sleeping arrangements, the boys shared and the male leaders shared.

In scouting I always understood it was mixed sex and separate sleeping arrangements.

O absolutely had no idea the guiding facially didn't differentiate between sex and gender. That's really bad as a starting point but horrendously negligent in safeguarding for a group aimed at girls and woman.

If a male wants to identify as a female in gender (whatever the definition of gendered female means?!) then they still should have the separate sleeping arrangements based on sex that we have had as a society for as long as time can remember.

Who said anything about peadophiles? I said very clearly that adult leaders is a different point entirely. I'm talking about children, I said trans girls not women. I don't believe that trans under 10s pose a risk to girls.

I'm talking about children, I said trans girls not women. I don't believe that trans under 10s pose a risk to girls.

I agree but Surely the girls get to choose if they're happy sharing sleeping quarters and showers with someone with a penis though?
The trans persons rights do not trump every else's.
It's about equality, everyone should be consulted and go with the wishes of the majority

My daughter goes to a scouts. She is going to help out at a scout camp on the weekend. Biological girls - her and her friend have a tent. Biological boys have tents. Trans boy (going from boy to girl) has their own tent. That makes perfect sense.

Someone’s rights to gender reassignment characteristics does not trump anyones right to have single biological sex spaces.

Thank you Katie, you're an absolute shero. ❤️

This seems perfectly reasonable.
In my opinion, the fact that Guides is/was girls only is actually really valuable. Girls having a space simply to do activities and have fun without men/boys around. I wasn't sure it was a good thing until my DD joined Brownies and for her, and girls like her, single sex has been a welcome respite from the relentless presence of boys in childhood and adolescence.
I think that the option to have a club single sex is fine and mixed sex, also fine, but parents do need to know. Scouts policies on trans members isn't brilliant either, but everyone knows that both sexes attend. Guides has been less than clear about this and continuing with the same rules as if only females (sexed) were attending. This is the safeguarding blind spot.
Whilst I appreciate that everyone is entitled to privacy and dignity, that needs to apply for everyone.
I also wonder what Guides rules would say about a detransitioned transgirl/woman? If Guides is a fudge of single sex and/or single gender, presumably a male no longer identifying as female would have to leave.

Agree completely we are talking about mixed children events no different to any other activity

From the boys they probably go to school with?

The boys they go to school with are probably ones they'd most like time away from if my DD is anything to go by!