Are you or do you know a traditional wife?

[Juniper68]

Just watching Stacey Dooley staying at the trad wife's home. I didn't realise there were so many of them?
I really liked the wife and dcs. The dh not so much. Choosing the wife's clothes. Making dcs wear something heavy on their back if they've been naughty 😮
I'm not against being a sahm. But him calling all the shots is so controlling.

Thanks for answering @Pugfostermum.
No judgment from me. Although Dh & I both enjoy working, I know a few couples like you (including one in which the wife works and the DH doesn’t) and they are mostly happy.
None of them have a trad-wife set up where the husband is in charge or are strictly religious though.

@FranklySonImTheGaffer yes, neither of us are ‘in charge’.
We recognise each other’s strengths. He’s a planner and a forward thinker. I’m better at the immediate stuff.
I sort of have the final say when it comes to the dog (one of my passions) and he does on stuff like investments (as it’s his interest and he spends lots of time researching).
We are equal partners in all aspects of our lives and what we do.
I think that if you can see a relationship as a partnership, rather than two people both striving for the upper hand or control, it can work very well.

I’m genuinely not remotely angered by it. I am dismayed

i was brought up strict Catholic, went to convent school, mass daily, taught by nuns, I am now lapsed and not practicing . Likely due to the heavy all pervasive influence growing up. However it does mean I know it, I know it well and I absolutely can say if someone is living in his image.

So I am dismayed when someone proclaims to be deeply religious whilst behaving in a manner that is anything but and in a manner that is not aligned with the faith. Which is what that poster is doing. I have seen it too often before. I recognise it. Taking what you want from it to justify your lifestyle, whilst failing to adhere to the core principles.

I know some people would not compromise or defer on these matters. But I was able to.
For the vegetarian eating, it does require knowledge about nutrition and careful planning. We already ate whole foods, with very little processed sugar. We did actully come to a compromise on this one as I pointed out that vegan was not something that would be easy to do, or that I was comfortable with at this stage for growing children. (He can be vegan if he wants though.) So I asked that we would not be dairy, egg and honey free. Actually my older boy occasionally eats fish at his grandparents.

The vaccination issue is more complicated as my husband's very strong pro-life/ consistant life ethic beliefs lead him to believe that any use of fetal cell is imorral. This includes for the production of some vaccinations. He is OK with the other vaccines, (well probably would prefer not to), but again a compromise was made on the ones without those ethical concerns. So yes my point of view and beliefs where they differ are taken into account. But in the end, a final decision is made and he makes it.

When we married I knew he was vegetarian leaning and very pro life, (I am pro life too, but perhaps had not extended it beyond the more obvious issues). The vaccine thing didn't surprise me as on the second day we courted he told me he was against the use of chemical contraceptives, actually I had already had the abstenice before marriage is Biblical/NFP or natural family growth after marriage, talk with his Mum and grandma, as we washed the dishes at a family gathering. Very straightforward lady! It somehow wasn't as awkward as it seems- maybey a Glaswegien thing. Being from another denomination these sorts of things were somewhat assumed but not as clearly articulated. (Athough I don't think my own parents ever talked to me about anything remotly to do with marital intimacy). So it's not like these issues were raised unexpectedly, more part of an on going conversation.

@pointythings psalm 23? Stop trying to insult people.

Have I fallen down a rabbit hole??

Is this 2022 on a UK website?

But in the end, a final decision is made and he makes it.

You would prevent your children getting potentially life-saving vaccines on your husbands say so?

Mystified by comments like this.

You don’t work, have no kids…. And you “try” to keep on top of the laundry and food shopping.

What the fuck so you do all day? Why is it your husband’s job to work and not yours?

There isn’t a single thing about this brainwashed post that doesn’t depress and anger me.

A woman deferring to a pro-life husband, who has banned his children from being vaccinated, whose own mother decreed that he wouldn’t allow her to take contraceptives, while the women were doing the washing up at a family gathering…

Such regressive male control and abuse, dressed up as the nonsense of living in god’s image or some such nonsense. Of course men would see this as fundamental to a ‘happy marriage’, they live entirely free to do what the fuck they want with a subservient housekeeper and sex slave at home, that they’ve managed to trick into thinking she’s got some level of autonomy over her and her plentiful children’s lives.

It’s all so utterly bleak that it cannot be seen for what it is.

but books are written by people men, for people men, usually with an agenda. Why is it that in patriarchal religion across the world, it's always, always the man who must be deferred to, pandered to and adored? Why can't the woman be the one in charge? I haven't heard a single satisfactory answer to that one yet.

I agree with this, (but have slightly edited!) why is the default situation that the man has overall authority or final say in all important decisions?
And usually means the woman ends up doing all the menial tasks.

I think the fact that a woman would defer to a man and not vaccinate her children, at his say so and putting their health at risk, entirely proves the point that men are not competent to be the main decision-maker. It’s unutterably depressing that my ‘sisters’ - capable intelligent women - are putting themselves in such a subservient position in 2022.

Funny how the patriarchy in these religions never decrees that men do the laundry and cleaning and child rearing!

It reminds me of Casuabon in Middlemarch - who Dorothea reveres as an intellectual, only to realise once she’s married him that he ‘s not so clever after all.

Sadly most religions - built as they are on historical texts written by men - reify patriarchy. I was brought up in a very religious family and actually felt that Jesus would be appalled by some of the institutional behaviour and hypocrisy in the church. That was before I knew about all the child abuse and forced adoptions. I saw so much hypocrisy - judgement of those less well off and crossing to the other side of the street - it made me sick. But my Mum was very good fearing and she lived it. She was good through and through. But most of her church? Not by a long chalk.

My daughter always says to me how proud of me she is. To have achieved what I have in my career (all with public service at its heart) and to be such a good and caring mother. It just doesn’t have to be one or the other and we don’t have to subjugate our talents. That we can stand on our own two feet and navigate the world with good judgement and an independent mind. And it’s great to set an example to your children that you can live to your full potential whatever your gender. Why wouldn’t you use all your skills to do more than wash the dishes at a man’s say so?

What this thread shows is that religious women are their own worst enemy and worse still, their daughters' worst enemies.

@TwentyOneTwentyTwo what does Psalm 23 have to do with the fact that people still follow the tenets of religion without thought or question? We're talking about texts which have been edited, translated and redacted for thousands of years, to suit the politics of the time and the agenda of men. Obeying them without question isn't a good thing. It's being a sheep. I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm telling it the way it is. Of course you can choose to be a sheep - but at least own it.

@pointythings it isn't control though. The families that I have witnessed are beautiful and loving. They live out Catholicism.
Not sure how to make this clicky but watch this and others:

The families that I have witnessed are beautiful and loving. They live out Catholicism.

They live out an extreme and niche form of Catholicism which is very like extreme and niche forms of Protestantism.

As I've said before, I don't object to anyone choosing this life. What I object to is children being indoctrinated into it and never having the opportunity to know anything else.

It reminds me of those cases in the US where the extremely religious parents have failed to seek medical treatment for very ill children, who then died. And then the parents are all surprised when they're sent to jail. That level of religion is bad for children.

My only argument put to you is that there's no need to be rude to individuals because you don't agree with their beliefs and have issues with an institution that they have no control over. You have good questions for clergy but not for laymen. And I directed you to psalm 23 to show that they do own it. They're not ashamed of their faith.

I can't tell you why individuals believe anything. I can't obey or believe without question. That's why I'm not Catholic now as an adult. I wouldn't be able to make a sincere confession. I can't tell you why other people can or do. But I can ask that you don't insult them or insist that they engage in theological debate with you. That's not their job and if they do try to engage with you, remember that they are using their spare time to help you understand something very personal to them. They shouldn't have to educate you and they shouldn't have to defend themselves against personal attacks because you don't believe what they believe.

I think you are still trying to insult people because the word sheep obviously has negative connotations for you. But as you're no longer being hyperbolic with your insults, I'll be checking out. I'm not knowledgeable enough to keep answering or talking on behalf of others. And, I think your curiosity about the roots of 2000 year old institutions or the personal choices of millions of unknown individuals will not be sated by a Mumsnet squabble.

I have to say that there are many elements of the practice of traditional Catholicism that remind me of the Quiverfull movement (the Duggars, etc) Neither side would thank me for this comparison but I don't think it unfair.

I've concluded that most faiths are OK while the adherents are (eg) hiding out in catacombs, but with the power comes the patriarchy. I'm a Christian, I studied the Bible (degree level theology, many many years ago) and nothing has ever persuaded me that Christ's wish for the world was the subjugation of women. There is none of it in his teachings as transmitted in the Gospels or his actions as reported there. He gets lost in "religion" though and there is a danger we can end up worshipping the dogma, tradition and structures of (whichever) church, rather than God.

@TwentyOneTwentyTwo I'm not curious. I'm offended. I'm concerned for the children (especially the girls) born into these families and never given a choice about the lives they live. Do I judge? Hell yes. It's 2022 and no woman should be indoctrinated into living a 15th century patriarchal life from birth. Make that choice as an informed adult if you wish, but it's not OK for children. And that's outside of matters of vaccination, which are at best extremely neglectful.

it isn't control though. The families that I have witnessed are beautiful and loving. They live out Catholicism.

Catholicism is all about control.

I'd love posters opinions on the video links I posted. I'm just trying to show that they all have Catholicism in common but that doesn't mean they are all the same and that the families are full of love

@sleepyhoglet I'm not going to spend an hour of my life watching Catholic propaganda videos. We all know Catholicism comes in many flavours, and I'm sure the extreme version suits many people, especially men. That doesn't alter the fact that children brought up in that tradition have no choice about their faith. And let me be absolutely clear: this is an objection I have to all faiths. Children should be raised faith neutral until they are of an age to make an informed choice about what their faith path should be.

@pointythings fair enough. I don't think they are propaganda though- just some interviews with catholic families telling their own stories. I found them really interesting. For the record I'm not a trad wife! I work full time and have children but I find other ways of living interesting hence suggesting the videos

That’s abuse, especially for the children. Traditionally, parents protect their children.

@sleepyhoglet the middle one turned me off immediately, referring as it does to a 'fallen man'. If you follow the link to the comments there's one from a lady who is worried about her husband because he isn't a believer like she is. You may think that's love. I think that is a total lack of respect for his beliefs. The arrogance of these people is astounding. This is something believers at the extreme ends of all faiths have in common and it's bullshit. Nobody has begun to prove that God even exists - nobody knows. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Good job he hasn't traded you in for a different model, or screwed you financially then.

And we can all think that our husbands wouldn't do that. But then, it turns out, so many do

I was a SAHM for a number of years but wouldn’t ever describe myself as traditional! Didn’t see the show but sounds worlds apart from the typical SAHMs and SAHDs that I know. Definitely a niche concept which wouldn’t at all work for most couples!