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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to want to know the truth about this?

1000 replies

MNettersForNoahAndFiona · 25/04/2022 14:39

Noah Donohoe was an intelligent, smart, kind and gentle boy. He was 14 years old, the only child of Fiona Donohoe and her everything.

On 21st June 2020, a bright sunny day and as lockdown had eased, Noah set off on his bike to meet up with his two friends to do some schoolwork together, but never reached his destination. Instead, Noah's body was found 6 days later in a storm-drain, naked, in a part of his home city he did not know.

On the day Noah was found, before Noah was formally identified, the Police did a media release stating that there was ‘No Foul Play’ involved. If the police are so sure that ‘No Foul Play’ was involved and that they will not be found wanting under scrutiny, why are they now trying to stop Noah’s mother and her legal team getting access to four files of information on Noah’s investigation?

The Police have applied for a ‘Public Interest Immunity’ certificate, which, if granted, means they can hide four key files in the investigation. Such a certificate is only used in exceptional circumstances and rarely used in the case of a missing child. This certificate has been brought into play in cases where Police intelligence, informers or paramilitaries are involved.

Noah’s mummy has, from the very start of Noah being missing, believed that the police did not use all their resources in finding Noah. This was confirmed when it emerged they had not paid anyone overtime while investigating his death. They did little, if any, forensics and any suspects that were brought to their attention were dismissed as not relevant.

Noah's mummy believes that someone harmed Noah and that there have been serious and repeated failings in the Police investigation of his death. She will never get to the truth and Justice for Noah if she does not get all the information. These four files are vital to get the truth she desperately needs, to find out what really happened to her precious son.

This is a podcast with Noah's mother. It is a hard watch and so a trigger warning may be needed before watching:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWsr3giWH8

After watching the podcast and the more I get to know, the more questions and doubts I have, and the more difficult it is to believe the police claim of 'No Foul Play'. Noah's death is being treated as a coroner's investigation and the police are not actively pursuing any person or persons in relation to it. Given the lack of a proper investigation into Noah's disappearance and death by the police and their application to keep their files secret, it is difficult to have any confidence in them. In fact, this has been described as their 'Stephen Lawrence moment'. Add to this that Noah's mother and auntie have received telephone threats, are trolled daily online and posters of Noah have been defaced - his face deliberately cut out of them. My own view is that the files must be released and a new and independent investigation begun.

As a parent, a member of the public and a long-standing Mumsnetter, I want to know the truth about what happened to Noah. Even more importantly, I want his mother Fiona to get the truth she needs to be allowed to grieve properly for her son, for Noah to get the justice he truly deserves, for all other children to be safe in the future and to place transparency and accountability where it should rightly be.

AIBU?

This is an earlier thread about Noah, nearly full and so about to close to new posts, but with useful links to newspaper articles and also to a petition in support of his mother:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4525759--THREAD-2-Will-you-spare-five-minutes-to-help-the-lovely-Noah-Donohoe-get-the-justice-he-deserves-and-to-support-his-mummy-Fiona-in-getting-the-truth-about-what-happened-to-her-beloved-son

AIBU to want to know the truth about this?
OP posts:
Thread gallery
104
ReiltinDubh · 25/04/2022 22:06

2020ihavenoname · 25/04/2022 19:15

Start a petition....???????? Sure we could get over 100,000 signatures so it has to be discussed?.

Do you mean a parliamentary petition, 2020ihavenoname ?
I'm an Irish mumsnetter so not totally up to speed on how that works but it sounds familiar from different threads I've read through the years - 100,000 signatures will get it discussed in Parliament?

MNettersForNoahAndFiona · 25/04/2022 22:07

tendence · 25/04/2022 21:45

@UrslaB Thank you for a very insightful comment. Lots of things I hadn't thought about (not only related to this case).

Yes, I too appreciate your post @UrslaB . It's just that I have seen those arguments used before to defend the police and use of Public Interest Immunity certificates. There are ways to protect the absolutely necessary using minimal redaction, while at the same time ensuring that the innocent, like Noah, are protected and get the truth and justice to which they are entitled.

OP posts:
MNettersForNoahAndFiona · 25/04/2022 22:12

ReiltinDubh · 25/04/2022 22:06

Do you mean a parliamentary petition, 2020ihavenoname ?
I'm an Irish mumsnetter so not totally up to speed on how that works but it sounds familiar from different threads I've read through the years - 100,000 signatures will get it discussed in Parliament?

Yes, I was also wondering about this. The current petition is on Change, not a UK government and parliament petition.

OP posts:
CatChant · 25/04/2022 22:20

Far too many unanswered questions.

I understand that police forces need to protect the identity of informants.

But the power to block access to information is one that should be used sparingly, and one that is very, very easily abused to the detriment of the justice system as a whole.

I very much doubt every scrap of information in those four files needs to be hidden. Identifying details can always be redacted.

If the files are sealed on this unsatisfactory investigation I think the PSNI will find it very hard to gain or retain the trust of the public. And that is not a happy state of affairs for any police force.

That’s before you consider the sheer cruelty of leaving Fiona in almost two years of torment about the fate of her beautiful Noah.

CatChant · 25/04/2022 22:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

ReiltinDubh · 25/04/2022 22:31

I wanted to post this image - with thanks to Jam who posted it on another thread. It was created by Barry McGowan, a friend of Noah and Fiona 💙
I found it so powerful, because this is what it boils down to - "There is no greater good than the protection of children"
Every child deserves to come home. This poor boy, this beautiful soul, did not.
His mammy needs to know why. The entire community, both sides, need to know why. Even if they don't want to know it.
What kind of peace are we living if the price is a child's life.
That shouldn't be acceptable for anyone. Not anyone.

AIBU to want to know the truth about this?
CatChant · 25/04/2022 22:33

Sorry - I’ve reported my duplicate post.

I do not think anyone has enough evidence as yet to say with any degree of certainty how Noah came to be found naked and lifeless in that storm drain.

And that is not acceptable, not for anyone and especially not for an innocent child who vanished on a sunny afternoon when he should have been enjoying himself with his friends.

These questions have to be answered. For Noah’s sake, for Fiona’s sake and for the sake of other children in Belfast.

ReiltinDubh · 25/04/2022 22:35

Imagine not knowing when your baby died.
The baby you raised single handedly, you were each others world through thick and thin.
Imagine knowing he was missing for 6 days and not knowing on which one of those 6 days he breathed his last.
My heart breaks tonight, as it does every night, for Fiona. What she has had to go through, what she continues to face every day in order to find out the truth about what happened to her baby.

MNettersForNoahAndFiona · 25/04/2022 22:36

Don't worry about your duplicate post at all @CatChant - the site is running slow and with internal server errors aplenty tonight.

OP posts:
ReiltinDubh · 25/04/2022 22:38

Yes @CatChant , it took me three goes to post that one with the image

VeganGod · 25/04/2022 22:41

MNettersForNoahAndFiona · 25/04/2022 22:07

Yes, I too appreciate your post @UrslaB . It's just that I have seen those arguments used before to defend the police and use of Public Interest Immunity certificates. There are ways to protect the absolutely necessary using minimal redaction, while at the same time ensuring that the innocent, like Noah, are protected and get the truth and justice to which they are entitled.

Yeah I’ve seen those arguments before too. Hmm They certainly stand out on a parenting site, but they pop up, always quite long and detailed essays to justify the police behaviour.
If they cared, they would find a way to release the files. We can not allow children’s deaths to be covered up and not provide their families with the truth.

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 25/04/2022 23:05

💙💙💙💙💙💙💙

ReiltinDubh · 25/04/2022 23:06

I'm angry. I, along with the rest of the country, hoped and prayed when Noah went missing that he would come home.
He didn't. And until very recently I had no idea of the horrific ordeal his mother has gone through every day since then, trying to find out what happened to him.
If you haven't watched her podcast interview yet, please do.
It is an extremely distressing watch, I won't lie. But I thought to myself, she has been in a living hell, the least I can do is take some time out to hear what she has to say.
There are far too many unanswered questions regarding Noah's disappearance and the subsequent investigation by the PSNI.

catandcoffee · 25/04/2022 23:15

This story is heartbreaking.
It needs much more coverage in the UK press.... #justicefornoah

ReiltinDubh · 25/04/2022 23:16

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 25/04/2022 23:05

💙💙💙💙💙💙💙

Beautiful Noah 💙💙💙

UrslaB · 25/04/2022 23:59

VeganGod · 25/04/2022 22:41

Yeah I’ve seen those arguments before too. Hmm They certainly stand out on a parenting site, but they pop up, always quite long and detailed essays to justify the police behaviour.
If they cared, they would find a way to release the files. We can not allow children’s deaths to be covered up and not provide their families with the truth.

Once again. Devils Avacado here. I find the idea of whetehr this is reasonable or unreasoable diffcult to wrangle with.

The files may be being witheld because they could identify sensitive intelligence information like informants or ongoing investigations. OR...yes, it could be for a more sinister reason such as covering up police failings or covering up a sectarian hate crime that could have seen belfast descend into violent rioting. Northern Ireland has had too many historical incdents of police incompetence and outright coverups. The sad thing is...they not all that 'historical' either. Without seeing the files, no one knows. Catch 22.

"we cannot allow children's deaths to be covered up" That is an assumption in this case. You are assuming guilt and conspiracy. If it is then yes it should be dragged into the light but it's still an unknown.

"Quite long and detailed essays to justify police behaviour"...Justification is to defend and explain a circumstance, it is not a comment on justness or righteousness. Complex issues should require complex answers, and Northern Ireland policing is still unfortunately a very complex issue, necessitating a long and detailed response. In an ideal world full transparency would always happen and should be the aspiration. Yet the world is grey and this is not realistic. There are no simple answers. Do I think their actions are right? No. Do I think they could have good reasons for them? Possibly. Do I see a difference between action and behaviour? Yes. Could the PSNI, the PPS, Coroner and DOJ have behaved in a more empathetic and helpful manner when handling this horrendous loss of a beautiful young life? Abso-bloody-lutely!

"If they cared" - again, an implied assumption of a lack of care. I worked in the legal sector but left because I saw every day that people like me cared, we tried to make a difference. I represented clients who were up on a range of charges and dealt with a host of civil issues (family law is just heartbreaking)....yet as much as I cared the law and they 'system' often tied my hands. In the end I left the profession. I was unable partition my emotions and life between work and home. Working in the justice system while surrounded by injustice made it impossible. I changed careers. People who cared were hamstringed by laws set up designed to protect a system. I would hope that police in any part of the UK are the same. That they are people: fathers, mothers, brothers,sisters, people who have empathy and care. Especially in the case of searching for what happened to a child. Unfortunately, any system set up to meet the needs of society often gets bogged down in beauracracy and the unempatheic decision making of govt ministers etc. makes it hard to believe that.

If the files could be minimally redacted to protect potential officiers or informers which may be necessitating the need for secrecy then this would be the ideal solution and I really hope that could be done. However, I am pessimistic about this. This idea that you can minimally redact a file to protect people's identities is nice but in reality while doable, it is sometimes almost impossible to do. Think about it. Have you ever tried to redact interview sheets or investigative notes? Redact the names of officers because their secondment and station can identify the communities and individuals they spoke with who could be informants. Redact the locaton of the interview because it can give away who it is or the group they are from (leading to possibly violent witch hunts). Then you redact the names or places that the person talks about in the interview because in a localised area like Belfast segregated communities that can narrow who the interviewer is or their group. Then you redact the times they discuss because that can be used to pinpoint who they are and where they went. Then you redact the names of people they discuss because that creates a loci and a matrix of people to narrow down the interviewee. ...What is left? A page with lots of redacted Black lines, some adjectives and conjunctions. Then the cry goes out that the document released is worthless and has been overly redacted and the govt. body has been acting in bad faith. Really is a no win position.

Sadly I do think that in the modern day, the public has to treat with the justice sysetm and all its organs like a hostile entity because there has been so much ass covering and blatant abuse that to get the truth or action we often have to agitate and fight. That shouldn't be how our justice system works anywhere in the UK.

Then again, I look at the PSNI and after they fired an officer for abusing his dogs but merely transfered another officer who threatened a female colleague with rape and subjected her to a prolonged campaign of harrassment...I can see why there is no faith in the NI justice system. When dogs get more justice than people, it says it all.

I wish Fiona Donohue all the best in her fight and hope she gets the truth one way or another.

MNettersForNoahAndFiona · 26/04/2022 00:02

I'm just thinking about calling it a night and I'm thinking of Fiona and her sister Niamh, who has been by her side throughout all this. Fiona should have her sleeping child under her roof tonight as I have my children. Instead she is without her Noah and facing another preliminary hearing tomorrow in an inquest process she has cause not to trust, led by a coroner who is finalising a PII certificate to allow the police to withhold information concerning the death of her child.

That is not right in 2022.

OP posts:
catandcoffee · 26/04/2022 00:08

💔💙

Kastri · 26/04/2022 00:51

Ive signed the petition.Thanks for bringing this to our attention here.

MNettersForNoahAndFiona · 26/04/2022 00:59

catandcoffee · 25/04/2022 23:15

This story is heartbreaking.
It needs much more coverage in the UK press.... #justicefornoah

It is and it does. The silence from mainstream media recently has mostly been deafening.

One example today from ITV:

www.itv.com/news/utv/2022-04-25/political-leaders-condemn-defacing-of-noah-donohoe-posters-in-north-belfast

www.itv.com/news/utv/2022-04-25/police-probe-into-damaged-noah-donohoe-posters

OP posts:
MNettersForNoahAndFiona · 26/04/2022 01:01

Kastri · 26/04/2022 00:51

Ive signed the petition.Thanks for bringing this to our attention here.

Thank you 💙

OP posts:
VeganGod · 26/04/2022 01:07

Someone is working overtime tonight, another long post to justify concealing the truth. Honestly, TLDR.

Thinking of Noah and his family. 💙

mummabear74 · 26/04/2022 01:16

I have just signed the petition and shared it to family and friends. My thoughts are with the family and hope they get the peace they deserve.

Tippexy · 26/04/2022 01:26

VeganGod · 26/04/2022 01:07

Someone is working overtime tonight, another long post to justify concealing the truth. Honestly, TLDR.

Thinking of Noah and his family. 💙

I thought it was an interesting read. It’s possible to agree with the sentiment of the thread but also see different perspectives.

VeganGod · 26/04/2022 01:33

Tippexy · 26/04/2022 01:26

I thought it was an interesting read. It’s possible to agree with the sentiment of the thread but also see different perspectives.

Whatever you want to believe.

Thinking of Noah and his family. 💙

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