To wish we never had DC6?

[FartVandelay]

We have two DC, 8 and 6.

DC8 has ADHD and while impulsive and a charterbox at times is very sweet and has a heart of gold. I worry about them being taken advantage of at school.

DC6 is a different story. Sneaky, crafty, bullies their sibling, talks back at us, lies and cheats. Yet is a completely different person at school. Their teachers are baffled when we ask how their behaviour is at school compared to home. I have constant battles with food with DC6. Evening meals take hours. They refuse to eat 90% of what I put in front of them regardless of whether they've eaten it before and professed it the best ever. They constantly defy me, hide sweets in their room. I love DC6 so so much but am at the end of my tether. I came close to telling DC6 I wish we'd never had them tonight. Feel like the worst parent. I see all these other families so happy. I was happy when DC6 was born, so happy. I thought our family was complete but if I could turn thr clock back I'm not sure what I'd do. They just make life so hard. I'm exhausted fighting these constant battles with DC6. DH is away with work until Tuesday. I just don't know if I can do two more nights of handling the DC alone. We have no family local and my friends all have their own families to deal with. Is it really this hard?

Watch out for the 'Perfect Peter' 'Horrid Henry' dynamic. The examples you give are of really normal sibling behaviour. I would be wary that you are setting your younger up to fail and labelling them as 'the naughty one'. As others have said, they know when you have a favourite, and will play up to your expectations.

I agree.

Imagine ending the day hearing about how you could have done better, lying there before you sleep thinking about how you can try again tomorrow, when you've already spent the day trying your best. 😢

A lot of this is normal, if irritating, sibling stuff.

Don't use a timer as it will just add to the stress. I'm 50, and if I had to listen to a timer ticking away while I was eating my supper, I'd find it very off-putting.

You need no stress at all about meal times. Give them their dinner (involve younger DC in preparing it, if you think that might work), eat with them, clear away anything that hasn't been eaten without comment.

Behaving well at school and letting it all out at home sounds like masking to me (though could also be neurotypical behaviour - some neurotypical children are just more difficult than others, and have to find ways to rein it in at school).

Look at your older child's behaviour, too. Are they always as nice to their sibling as you think they are? Are they using their 'niceness' as a way to get at their sibling in a more subtle way - in that both children will have worked out whom you're likely to believe and of whom you are more likely to think well?

Whatever you do, don't brand your younger child "sneaky" or "deceitful", as that is what they will become if you tell them often enough that this is what they are. Especially not over something very trivial. With the pizza crusts, for example, if the alternatives are either eating something you don't want to eat, or sitting at the table for what will feel to a six-year-old like an eternity, I'd be slipping them into the bin, too.

If you don't buy sweets, nobody can "sneak" them. If you do want to buy them, give them to the DC and say they can eat them whenever they like, but when they have gone, that's that.

Spend time with them both individually. Even if just 10 or 15 minutes.

I used to lie when my mum was overbearing and tried to force me to do things I couldn't do, like stay at the table and finish my dinner that I'd left because I had texture issues with the food and didn't have the words to explain that, or when I had nothing to drink and my mouth was too dry to eat anything. At that age for me it was because I was scared of being in trouble or being made to do the thing I couldn't do and I lied in the hope of a quiet life. When my mum did catch me she always rubbed it in "fine go to bed hungry" "well starve then" where just taking the food away would have been kinder.

I kicked my sibling when no one was watching because she kicked me first and knew how to press my buttons and she would always scream loudest and be believed. I sneaked down at night and stole raisins because I was miserable and hungry and wanted to eat something I actually could swallow without gagging.

At seven, I started stealing other kids' packed lunch snacks at school as I was hungry and knew I could eat them in the toilets before play time was over. I was secretive because I didn't want to get into trouble and couldn't stop myself as I had poor impulse control. I was also considered a model student by teachers and I never got caught about the snacks (something I feel deeply awful over now).

At that age if I could have had one wish it would have been that my mum asked me what I wanted at the supermarket. Even just my preferred breakfast cereal would have made a huge difference. Or switching Kwik Save No Frills Economy Sausages for chicken nuggets. As it was, I got two meals shoved at me every day that I hated and the only place I felt in control of what I ate was at school. I still have a difficult relationship with food and have battled with being underweight all my life.

I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 33 and had comprehensively ruined my life. You sound nothing like my mum, but your child's behaviour sounds similar to mine at that age. It's clear you obviously want to help your child, and maybe reframe that as "winning" instead of feeling like you're losing every battle of wills against them. You can't ever lose if you love them and you're doing the right thing to help them, even if that means stepping back sometimes or changing what you're doing.

Make dinner, clear table after 45 minutes. Offer toast half hour before bed. Nothing else. Don't battle with them to eat it. Your job is to provide the food, their job is to eat it. You cannot force them. Stop making it a battle

Agree with this. Making it go on for hours is going to turn it into more of a problem.

I would also add that my two youngest fight like cat and dog regularly and DH and I have sometimes had to intervene.

I’m 40 and still don’t eat pizza crust, I think that really isn’t a big deal, I’d probably chuck it on the sly as well if someone was insisting I eat it. I think lie is a very strong word for that.

Gosh. What you're describing sounds very minor IMO. You're either leaving loads of detail out of your posts or you're completely neurotic.

If it's the latter then wow, poor DC6, and I'd advise you to get a grip and grow a heart.

If his behaviour is good at school something must be happening at home that’s triggering the bad behaviour.

That's such rubbish. The kids to be worried about are the ones who let out all their difficult emotions at school - because they don't feel safe or able to do so at home.

I just don't know why they have the need to impress the teacher but not us.

Because you are their family, their home, their safe, let it all out place. Whereas they have a specific, limited relationship with the teacher, for a fixed time and purpose.

I’m just going to share what I’ve changed recently to reduce battles in my home. If it’s not useful please do feel free to discard.
My youngest is 7yo and I think my expectations of them are sometimes too high. My eldest is a few years older and I always know they’re going to do the right thing, whereas youngest doesn’t and will sometimes actively choose what I don’t want them to do. I think I’ve partly caused that, by jumping in with my expectations based on how eldest has always been, instead of hanging back and letting them figure it out.
I think back to when my eldest was 7 and I’m sure I didn’t hold them to such high expectations, I just loved them and let them be and didn’t try to force anything or change them. I’m trying really really hard to expect less and understand and accept more.
Tonight for bath time (huge battlefield for us) I just made it all a game and it was completely fine, over in 15 mins.
Take “should” out of your vocab. There is no morality issues here, your child isn’t deceitful, they’re just worried about being in trouble and also working out what free will they have and what rules they can break.

Pizzas junk and I wouldn’t care less if they didn’t finish it - why you want to fight over pizza?? Take away the sweets and feed them when you KNOW they’re hungry. Don’t offer toast before bed either - banana or something instead. My children were Terrible (1xASD) only got their shit together on the food front once they realised that their dinner was their chance to eat! I simply halves the post school snack and push’s back dinner by an hour. Magic

i honestly think you’re making a big deal out of normal behaviour on the sneaky bullying front but also I know what’s it’s like dealing with NT behaviour… not everything is that: they are really young. Smallish age gap and same gender so it’s probably sly quite intense.

maybe focus in seeking support for adhd and consider if your younger child has it too? My sister was autistic and she was good as good at school and a tyrant at home.

No advice but I'm sure you'll find the right solution for you and the children. Plenty of good ideas from other posters. 💐

@SnackSizeRaisin It's a bit ridiculous to suggest that one act of generosity from an eight year old is a sign of said eight year old manipulating his/her mother. That's just as much of a stretch as some of the things imputed to the six year old, and frankly rather paranoid!

This. It's not a nice thing to say to a child at anytime, never mind at bedtime. Looking back to my childhood, there was a LOT of bickering and fighting with my siblings. It's perfectly normal.

In terms of the pizza crusts, I've never been a lover of mashed potatoes so when I was a child and we had Sunday lunch I used to hollow out the mash and hide other veg in there i didn't want to eat. I used to think I was so smart. It never occurred to me that it would be noticed when my plate was scraped off but I don't remember anything being said about it. I guess my parents where picking their battles!

Parenting a ND child is totally different to parenting their NT siblings. You can’t treat them the same, and even if you think you are I can guarantee there are differences you haven’t noticed. I don’t mean this harshly, it’s just the way it is. I’m 18 years in to parenting 4 children (2 of whom are ND) and I still get it wrong most days.

To me, it sounds like your 6yo is frustrated and is acting out as a way of gaining some control, or having the ‘upper hand’ so to speak.
Are they always instigating or are they just being caught retaliating? Are they both punished/reprimanded the same or are there different types for each?

a lot of what you’ve written sounds absolutely normal for a same sex sibling relationship with a 2 year age gap, but it does also sound like you have a ‘perfect Peter/horrid Henry dynamic going on like a pp suggested. Not just in the childrens actions, but in the way you’re viewing those actions.

I also wouldn’t automatically jump to presuming the younger is also ND just because they’re acting up at home.

can I make a suggestion that you get in touch with the charity SCOPE. They have a talking therapy available called Navigate, which is aimed at parents and families of children with a disability. The sessions are focussed on how the child’s disability affects you/the family, rather than the child. Maybe it will help to have an impartial ear.

www.scope.org.uk/family-services/navigate/

OP,
My eldest had a tiny awful appetite.
It was distressing.
I felt enormous pressure.
He saw one of the best gastroenterology specialists in the country because they were not gaining weight.
He was a smiling happy child.
She told me not to worry.
A child that has a variety of food put in front of it, will not starve.
I was firmly told to lighten up.
I have reminded myself of that conversation many times.
Stop the meal stress.
Put the food in front of her.
Leave it.
Then dump it.
Don't be me, stressed about it, unnecessarily.

I think that you should have a chat with your brother. You get along but I bet he remembers some stories that might help your expectations of dc6.

Ime some of your stories are normal sibling rivalry eg the chargers and throwing away the crusts isn't sneaky- what would you have said or done if they said no? Many NT kids would throw them away because they fear the reaction if they just said no. Plus there's the possibility that you'd never know which means not being told off.

Considering that dc6 is better behaved when dc8 isn't around, I suspect that sibling rivalry is very possible. I think that you need to be mindful of how it feels to have a sibling with Special Needs. The NT sibling is sometimes "forgotten" and have higher expectations places on them. You'll know if this applies to your family.

If dc8 always caves into dc6 then you need to keep an eye on that. You don't want dc8 becoming a doormat and missing out because they've given what they want to a friend or their sibling. Sometimes I read posts on here from adults who won't place their happiness ahead of others sometimes and it's very sad.

Catch them doing something good (as often as you can) and heap on the praise right there and then.
Cook together when you can, sit at the table to eat together always. If they don't want to eat, try not to notice, eat your own food and keep a conversation going.
Siblings do fight. You are only seeing the SM shiny photos. No-one is like that all the time. DSis and I never got on until after she left home. We are fine now and I am unlikely to hit her on the nose again.
You only have to be 'good enough', thankfully so do your DCs.

My son is ASD, and he is a different child at school, to the point that I had to ask his teacher if she had the correct notes in front of her at parents' evening because the kind, attentive, engaged child she was describing was nothing like the angry ball of rage and aggression that comes home every night. It can take an hour or more for my son (9) to transition from "school brain" to "home brain." He is exhausted after masking all day, and he can be utterly, utterly vile. But I know (and it has taken years for me to get here) that he is simply in his safe place and can let the mask drop and know that he won't be in trouble (to the same extent). It's hard, really hard, I won't lie. But he is also fabulous 1-1, so I keep him and his brother apart as much as I can until he is more settled. It doesn't always work, but he is just a little boy who is fighting to keep his head above water, dealing with a world that makes little sense to him at times.

Your DC6 sounds similar. I'd get him on the pathway for an ASD check, and try and keep the kids apart as much as possible when he's like that.

My younger son is a joy and a delight and I have to be very careful not to let it show that he is far more pleasant to spend time with. I fail frequently, and question myself daily, if not hourly, as to whether I am fit to parent a flea, let alone a child with extra needs. But we persevere. We must.

I completely agree with everything here.

I think your child can sense how you feel about them.

I don't want to derail the thread and lots of people have already given better advice than I could. But I just wanted to point out that lots of people are making assumptions about the sex of DC6. The OP has made a point of not saying whether they are a boy or a girl (which I think is fine, because it doesn't matter) but a lot of people have assumed the child is a boy. I find it really sad that for lots of people, bad behaviour = boy 🙁

This isn't necessarily true, at all.

You're going to have to choose your battles here, you're already worn out and fighting every negative thing will just make that worse. Food on the table, remove it after 30 minutes if nothing has been eaten. Don't fight about it and don't insist they sit there until it gets eaten, if they wouldn't eat it fresh they definitely won't when it's going cold/stale. They'll eat when they're hungry. Keep sweets tucked away - if they didn't eat their meal, they don't get sweets. DC8 might have to suffer a bit here, as it's probably best not to give one while denying the other. Some behaviour, as long as it's not damaging other people, can be ignored, and that's often a good tactic. Make their bedroom safe and don't be afraid to tell them they need to go there if you're really at the end of your sanity. You don't mention gender, but autism spectrum conditions present very differently in boys and girls, girls regularly go undiagnosed. If one DC has an ASD, their siblings are more likely to as well. Chat with school - could there be something else going on, like dyslexia, or even hearing/vision problems?