To have felt irritated by my friend’s children today?

[Chickalick]

Not sure if I’m being unreasonable or not to be be honest.

DH and I (who for context don’t have children) went for lunch today with friends of ours and their two DC. Youngest is 5, eldest is 11.

I just didn’t enjoy it and have come home feeling really frazzled due to their DC’s behaviour. I should probably preface it by saying they weren’t being horrendous but neither of them would stay seated for more than 5 mins at a time, constantly bouncing around on their seats, up and down around the table. Youngest kept ear piercingly shrieking every 5 mins and then giggling as they thought it was hilarious, it was like nails on a chalkboard. Eldest kept shouting when they talked (they have a tendency to do this in general) and it was deafening. Youngest kept stabbing their fork repeatedly into the table and eldest started chucking their chips at the youngest which then encouraged youngest to do the same.

I just felt like it was chaos and could feel the diners next to us getting annoyed. It was the noise, just constant really LOUD shouting instead of talking from the eldest or shrieking and silly wailing noises from the youngest. Youngest constantly wanting to get up and run round the restaurant. Us adults could barely hear each other and I just wanted to eat and get out of there ASAP.

To add, parents did tell them to stop each time they shrieked, started chucking food etc but they would stop for about 30 seconds then start again and I think they got fed up of telling them in the end so just kinda gave up. They whipped out an iPad in the end and gave it to them but then they put some game on with the volume on loud and both started shrieking and baying each other when the other was beating them etc.

We’ve just got home and I said to DH that I just didn’t enjoy the meal and won’t be in a hurry to do it with them again. I said it’s like they were feral and had never been taught to sit at the table and eat. He thinks I’m being unreasonable and said that’s just eating out with children, they’re noisy and hyper and there’s not much you can do.

Is he right?

But the behaviour you're describing is totally run of the mill, ordinary 5yo stuff.

It really, really isn’t. I have lots of friends with kids around that age and they all behave perfectly well when out for a meal. If they do start getting fed up or bored, their parents generally take them outside or have other means to keep them entertained.

YANBU. Your husband will change his tune when he has a meal out with them.

I would not expect that from an 11 year old. DN is now 12 but was never like that at 11...and I've spent a lot of time with him.

Assuming there are no SEN issues, your friends are utterly shit at parenting. At 5 and 11 they should know how to behave when out for a meal. A 5 year old shouldn’t be shrieking. I wouldn’t have let my 2 year old do that! And I wouldn’t have let a baby throw food! And using a loud iPad as a babysitter? No no no! What a totally embarrassing and awkward experience. YANBU at all OP.

@HipsterMum

Your username says it all 😉

I know a number of primary school teachers and they all agree that children's behaviour, and parents parenting, has got significantly worse during the 20+ years of their careers. So many more parents now believe the utter trash that children need to not have boundaries around them and that the word no is akin to child abuse. Parents should be friends, not parents. Children are only safe and secure when they have loving, clear, caring parameters within which to operate, guided by the adults in their lives, not their "friends".

I can also assure you that if a loud boisterous 11 yr old child threw food in a family setting in another culture, 99% of adults and children aged 5-15 in that setting would have reprimanded them too.

No one expects a child to sit in a restaurant in silence and not be engaged with. I had great times in restaurants with my children when they were young, as did my adult friends, as my children were taught how to behave all through their lives, and my age appropriate expectations were consistently and lovingly reinforced throughout their childhood.

The easy option is to be their friend, let them rule the roost, let them get away with being naughty, let them think that the world of everyone revolves around them and let them never hear no. Long term, this does not produce well rounded adults as this is not the way the world works.

I've gone out for lunch with friends several times with my 4 year old daughter . It's always lovely, she sits so nicely to eat and joins In conversation where she can etc. She's learnt a lot of this from nursery but we do reinforce good table manners at home too. Can't believe those children were throwing food!!! If that was mine as soon as she did it the meal would be over and I would have marched her out, it's not acceptable behaviour at all.

@Chickalick

I have known these children since they were babies. Their parents talk about them non-stop. There is no SEN. Thy were just being boisterous and unruly, which I totally get sometimes children are. It doesn’t mean they’re SEN. I think this is part of the problem with today’s society, no children can be ‘naughty’ anymore, everyone wants to excuse their behaviour by diagnosing them with medical conditions.

There just has never been particularly strict parenting, ever. Like I say, they seem to want to be their DC’s best pals, rather than their parents so it’s not surprising they’re a bit unruly.

Sorry OP but I just want to correct your comment on today’s society, the issue is that no one has much idea of SEN unless they have experienced it directly and there is a huge lack of awareness from the general population. If anything it’s still under diagnosed. It can often be well hidden and parents can be in denial or miss it. The behaviour doesn’t seem quite usual for an 11 year old and maybe there’s something going on or maybe it is just purely bad behaviour. That said, if a child is acting like that at a dinner with friends, I think the parents do have a responsibility to control the situation. So to your original question YANBU.

When I was 9, my father got a job abroad. This was in the late 70s, and we - myself, my younger brother (7) and older brother (10) and my mother were able to accompany him....it just wouldn't happen these days, particularly considering he was posted to what was then called a third-world country.

As a result, we started having to attend very formal sit down meals with my parents, my father's work colleagues and other outside VIPs .... my parents could rarely find anyone to babysit us. There were occasions were children were just not allowed and that usually meant my mother couldn't attend (which was also frowned upon).

We 3 children were expected to sit quietly, eat the food offered (no children meals back then) talk at a normal volume, and most importantly, not to interrupt adult conversation. We weren't allowed books, games or any other such distractions at the table. To be honest it was the fear of how our parents would react afterwards if we did dare to even slightly misbehave that kept us in line. We were continually reminded by my parents that my father could lose his job if we behaved badly...

40 years on and I've been known to leave, even in the middle of a meal, if there are children misbehaving in a restaurant. The age of 11 is far too old for a child to be behaving like that.

Shrieking happens, unfortunately

But LOUD GAMES???!!!! 🤬🤬 bad bad bad parents!!!!! Most horrible antisocial behaviour!!!! You should have told them off!!

DD gets up and down but she’s 2 and we try to get her into a high chair where possible, it is messy but we have never had to use electronics etc we do have to talk to her constantly though which I think is fair enough. By 5 I am expecting it to be much more pleasant. The 5yr old was perhaps affected by a lack of COVID socialisation (my nephews who are the same age seem to be able to manage though so I don’t know) , but the 11yr old should be able to understand how to behave.

That's their poor, permissive parenting at play. Mine have never thrown food, got up or shrieked, and we don't do electronics at the table. It surprises me your friends even brought them knowing they can't behave, but then anyone who allows kids to play games in public without headphones is exceptionally selfish.

I have 3 and none of them are as bad as the children you describe. Not even my toddler.

Dont blame you my niece and newphew never behaved like that even of given an ipad its on mute or very low and theyve never thrown food around

[quote Jumpking]@HipsterMum

Your username says it all 😉

I know a number of primary school teachers and they all agree that children's behaviour, and parents parenting, has got significantly worse during the 20+ years of their careers. So many more parents now believe the utter trash that children need to not have boundaries around them and that the word no is akin to child abuse. Parents should be friends, not parents. Children are only safe and secure when they have loving, clear, caring parameters within which to operate, guided by the adults in their lives, not their "friends".

I can also assure you that if a loud boisterous 11 yr old child threw food in a family setting in another culture, 99% of adults and children aged 5-15 in that setting would have reprimanded them too.

No one expects a child to sit in a restaurant in silence and not be engaged with. I had great times in restaurants with my children when they were young, as did my adult friends, as my children were taught how to behave all through their lives, and my age appropriate expectations were consistently and lovingly reinforced throughout their childhood.

The easy option is to be their friend, let them rule the roost, let them get away with being naughty, let them think that the world of everyone revolves around them and let them never hear no. Long term, this does not produce well rounded adults as this is not the way the world works.[/quote]
I do not think children shouldn't have any boundaries, of course they should. However unlike fully developed adults children are in constant stages of development and training them to behave in a particular way at all times in a particular setting does not guarantee that they will simply comply every single time. All I was saying is this situation could have been completely taken out of context. Most of the posts at the moment right here are making those kids sound like complete villains. Especially I find ridiculous that everyone goes 'my kids never ever acted this way' which is an absolute lie. Every single person on this forum probably had loads of moments where their kids were completely loosing it in public or where they were not parenting the best. Anyone could have thought the worst of their parenting as well as their kids behaviour on that particular occasion. My point is that it might have simply been not the best day for those kids. Every single time when I pass by my local pubs I can see fully grown adults shouting and verbally abusing each other and yet this behaviour on a Friday night is pretty much the norm in the UK , however there is not the same level of tolerance for kids.

I believe parents should be both parents and friends. I hardly find many people these days who have warm relations with their parents after decades of being parented using conservative notions of whats acceptable and whats not and punishments that came with it. This thread is about someone complaining about a bad dinner. For God's sake with everything going in the news, people losing their lives. homes, their children and loved ones because of war how big of the problem is it? Or the fact that some parents took an iPad out to have 10 mins to themselves and they get so much judgement from some random strangers around them??

If I went out for lunch to catch up with child free friends I'd either go somewhere we could sit and eat outside with some swings, or have the dc babysat. Restaurant lunches are boring for young children no matter how many colouring in sheets or small toys you take. So to try and combine that with any sort of meaningful adult conversation would be a challenge.

OP you had an unpleasant evening with your friend and her children. You then complained about it to your partner. Get over yourself and move on it is hardly the end of the world. Leave your friend to parent her own kids the way she feels is necessary and don't go for food with them ever again.

@zebras92

But the behaviour you're describing is totally run of the mill, ordinary 5yo stuff.

It really, really isn’t. I have lots of friends with kids around that age and they all behave perfectly well when out for a meal. If they do start getting fed up or bored, their parents generally take them outside or have other means to keep them entertained.

Agreed. Not normal behaviour at all

"I don't think it's just 'luck of the draw'. I honestly believe you get from children what effort you put into them. It's hard, hard work."

I disagree. We work far harder than other parent we see to support ds and manage his behaviour but he is still likely to be the most disruptive person there. Other factors come into it too. Ds's behaviour will never be 'normal'.

@HipsterMum Why should she need to 'get over herself'? It's fine to parent your kids whatever way you want but when that affects other people you cannot expect people not to complain.
Also, just because there is a war, doesn't mean life doesn't go on in many other ways. I can't stop parenting my kids because kids in Ukraine or Palestine are sheltering from bombs.

Moreover, it is NOT the bad behaviour of the kids that is the focus here. It is the lack of effective parenting. I've had to carry a screaming child under my arm away from something where he was behaving badly. The key is that I then removed him from that situation (and myself). What's important here is that the parent allowed this behaviour to continue, didn't try to mitigate it in any way. Kids behave the way their parents let them. Of course kids have bad days and good days, but largely speaking kids behave within the boundaries the grown ups in charge of them allow them to.

@HipsterMum, I think you’re the one who needs a to get over yourself. You’ve come back to the thread to tell me to get over myself when I did nothing to provoke you?

It was a Monday evening musing after an irritating experience. My god I assume you’re one of these irritating airy, fairy types who thinks everyone should adore children and aren’t all children such a blessing it’s clear you’d let your DC behave in a similar way and expect everyone else to put up with it too. And your comment re everything going on in the world right now and I’m complaining about this?! Are you for real?! Have you read the AIBU board? The majority of posts are about innocuous events. I’m well aware of what’s going on in the world thank you and I have bigger problems than yesterday but it doesn’t mean I can’t have a vent if I want.

A PP was correct, your username says it all

[quote Chickalick]@HipsterMum, I think you’re the one who needs a to get over yourself. You’ve come back to the thread to tell me to get over myself when I did nothing to provoke you?

It was a Monday evening musing after an irritating experience. My god I assume you’re one of these irritating airy, fairy types who thinks everyone should adore children and aren’t all children such a blessing it’s clear you’d let your DC behave in a similar way and expect everyone else to put up with it too. And your comment re everything going on in the world right now and I’m complaining about this?! Are you for real?! Have you read the AIBU board? The majority of posts are about innocuous events. I’m well aware of what’s going on in the world thank you and I have bigger problems than yesterday but it doesn’t mean I can’t have a vent if I want.

A PP was correct, your username says it all [/quote]
So why can't you simply be honest and tell that to your friend directly if that's something that's been bothering you every time you met her and her children? Why judge her poor parenting behind her back? To me that sounds like a waste of your own time.

I’m definitely Team @Chickalick, but this is absolutely a non-event.

My friends dc is annoying, my sisters dc too, come to it, my cousin’s dc is a really rude individual and they just simper in his direction and he’s way older than the kids on this op!

I just don’t make plans that involve them anymore.

People are free to parent the way they want, and we can choose to meet them or not.

You can be subtle initially but if they push it, be honest, I don’t want to sit in a restaurant feeling others glare at me because your kids are throwing food or screaming.

Teaching your children to behave in a civilised manner is part of parenting. My child will shout on the bus, and I will tell her to stop it as she is creating a nuisance for others.

It sounds like they were tired and enjoying not parenting their kids for a short while.

If you didn't enjoy it you didn't enjoy it, you can't help that. Of course shrieking will be annoying. How can anyone tell you not to have an involuntary reaction? (annoyance)

At least you now know that if your friends suggest a restaurant trip including the children again, the correct response will be "God, no!"