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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
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allthecrackers · 18/04/2022 09:23

Ynbu and the increasing transgender agenda isn't helping.

PanicAtTheDisco2000 · 18/04/2022 09:25

Totally agree

Barrawarra · 18/04/2022 09:27

Yes I find it frustrating when other women don’t see it how I do. I think there’s basic misunderstanding for some, that if you like stereotypically feminine things or roles, that you are not feminist, that comes up on MN.

I think your examples could hopefully help folk who think like that to see the disadvantages and oppression routinely faced by women.

PlasticPlantsDontDie · 18/04/2022 09:28

I agree. And I would say that the gains we made are so precarious. Violent porn has acted as a backlash.

Fairislefandango · 18/04/2022 09:29

YANBU Sad

surlycurly · 18/04/2022 09:30

I totally agree. I can't believe my teenage daughter is in just the same position as I was as a teen. There has been little to no progress in the past 30 years, as far as I can see, except that women are now supposed to do even more and they have to have a successful career and run a home/ family, all whilst Being a size 8 gym bunny with a face full of filler and posting all about it on IG. I too was enraged watching the Jimmy Savile documentary but we're still not in a world where women are believed. It's shocking and frustrating to face the reality that women still don't have equality here or anywhere else in the world.

JoyLurking9to5 · 18/04/2022 09:33

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SushiShopSearch · 18/04/2022 09:35

YANBU. Sometimes I want to weep when I read about the destruction of women's rights that's happening at the moment.

Fiftythreepercent · 18/04/2022 09:38

I don’t necessarily agree with all of your list above but it’s good to get the list out there.

Young women today, probably rightly, are focused on personal safety but when they get older the biggest challenges will be in the world of work and pay gaps and lost promotion opportunities.

MN feminism is dominated by the transgender agenda. I remember feeling resigned that, on the day that the FTSE 250 published their very first gender pay gaps, 24 out of the 25 top threads on the feminism board were all about transgender issues. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns

Slothtoes · 18/04/2022 09:41

Yes OP. The older I get I think we all just have to keep making noise, keep on working with who we can work with to protect women. It’s not a left v right party political choice, because it’s the case that no political party will actually advocate for women and secure their legal rights- let alone improve on them.

Sickoffamilydrama · 18/04/2022 09:43

Yep, I often think the women that don't see it probably just don't want as self protection because it's pretty bleak once you realise.

I also think that when you are younger you see it less because your life experiences haven't knocked the optimism out of you yet.

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:44

Thank you for the replies. Your comments do make me feel slightly less despondent!

I’m interested in the comments about black women rejecting feminism. I have read about this, and, like you, I don’t really understand. I am white, and possibly just need a non-white perspective here. I assume the problems facing women are very similar whatever your ethnicity? But I also know that black women face a sort of horrifying double-whammy of prejudice- so in a sense need feminism even more?! I apologise if I sound ignorant here, as this is an issue I don’t fully understand.

I’m also interested in the gender pay gap you mention, @Fiftythreepercent I agree it’s a huge issue.

OP posts:
GalactatingGoddess · 18/04/2022 09:47

YANBU. I feel this way about feminism, and about child abuse and cruelty around the world.

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:48

@Fiftythreepercent
To look at it another way, though, the trans self ID issue is very significant to the salary and promotion issues you mention, surely? If ‘women’ no longer means ‘women’, then the statistics will disappear into nothingness, and we won’t be able to see where the inequality lies?

OP posts:
NashvilleQueen · 18/04/2022 09:49

Fully agree. In particular I fear the extent to which violent and degrading pornography is freely available. And that men who cause the death of a woman have been able to rely on a 'rough sex' defence to reduce the charge against them.

It would be really good for this thread not to become solely about trans issues because there's so many other threads out there. Both cause me concern but there's a wider problem with the way in which the 'traditional' cause of feminism appears to have lost significant ground in the past decade.

Narcoanonymoose · 18/04/2022 09:51

I agree re the trans issue taking up inordinate bandwidth. Yesterday one of the sunday papers reckoned that UK women were dying earlier than women in other OECD counties. How that isn't headline news I don't know..

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 18/04/2022 09:52

If the definition of woman includes “women and men who feel like/identify as women” then it is completely impossible to tackle the issues that only affects women of the adult human female variety. For instance the pay gap which is sex based not gender based. Men generally get paid more than women, if we start including women of the male variety the statistics will become skewed - they may even show the gap is dropping but how would we know if it’s dropping for biological women or the male women?

Also there are 2 feminism boards on mumsnet. Sex & gender and feminism chat. This separation was forced on FWR because so many mumsnet users were apparently desperate to have them separated. The sex & gender board is by definition about sex and gender, feminism chat about other things

Fiftythreepercent · 18/04/2022 09:56

@2TheLighthouse i’m not sure how relevant that is when you are talking about a fraction of the workforce being transgender. If it was more widespread maybe.

My username is one I use for posting on the feminism boards and it is the gender pay gap of my previous organisation in 2019. This is financial services for context.

Last time I posted about this there were other female posters actually trying to justifyit which I find quite disheartening

JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/04/2022 09:56

It would be really good for this thread not to become solely about trans issues

It will, there is only one correct way to do feminism on MN and unless you follow it they will come for you, all issues ignored or minimised, experiences of racism dismissed because the use of K word is more offensive to some apparently

WhenSheWasBad · 18/04/2022 09:59

Totally agree with you Op.

Also agree with NashvilleQueen It would be really good for this thread not to become solely about trans issues because there's so many other threads out there

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 18/04/2022 10:01

YANBU. The two things for me is the increase of violent porn, which means women are treated as nothing more than sexual objects and not even human, the acceptance of violence against women in the bedroom as some kind of harmless kink, and the expectations it places on women to go along with this shit.

And the erosion of single sex spaces, in particular prisons, where you cannot get away, and rape crisis and refuges, where women go because of the male violence commited against them. And some males insist on following them in for their own selfish power play validation purposes, demanding on everything being centered on them, not caring that they will distress the women there, and other women will self exclude and therefore be denied the help they need.

JoyLurking9to5 · 18/04/2022 10:04

[quote 2TheLighthouse]@Fiftythreepercent
To look at it another way, though, the trans self ID issue is very significant to the salary and promotion issues you mention, surely? If ‘women’ no longer means ‘women’, then the statistics will disappear into nothingness, and we won’t be able to see where the inequality lies?[/quote]
So true, the inequality will be hidden, impossible to demonstrate

emuloc · 18/04/2022 10:04

@JoyLurking9to5

Me too, and as well as the trans issue confusions, some (not all?) black women seem to reject feminism as being offensive to them because it is not specifically aimed at black women. As if the issues aren't common to all women. As if financial dependency, lack of affordable childcare, a benefit structure that supports mothers/single mothers/furthering education to increase earning potential are things that are bad for women if they arent white. Really shocking. The thread about "karens karening" was so depressing.
Why are you bringing black women up for, especially seeing as you cannot seem to grasp the fact that black women not only face sexism, but racism as well. Once again you demonstrate your own prejudice by being more concerned about a name, than about the racism black women face.
Slothtoes · 18/04/2022 10:05

I feel despondent about climate change and the threat it poses to all our kids let alone to their kids. If they ever get to have any.

I’m beyond fucked off that (while relieved at how far we’ve come historically) we haven’t even sorted the basics of feminism yet and still have all of that shit on our plates to fight past. We just all have to do what we can, about what we care about the most. Everything helps. Writing to your MP frequently about women’s issues is the bare minimum. There’s no point wasting energy and time on arguing with other factions. Just make sure that you don’t do nothing.

Beamur · 18/04/2022 10:07

I don't think things are necessarily that much different in terms of how well embraced feminism is by women.
Some of us are born feminists and others become...to borrow a quote and mangle it a bit!
Definitely a marathon not a sprint 😊
Some women will never embrace the philosophy of feminism, despite benefitting from its rewards. We may be united by biology, but women are not a hive mind.