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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

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lameasahorse · 18/04/2022 12:05

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PearPickingPorky · 18/04/2022 12:08

Not read the thread yet, just the OP, and I completely agree with you OP.

Honestly, given how grim society is for women and girls ar the minute, rampant virulent sexism/misogyny (which so many men actually seem proud to voice! Because they've cloaked it in an attempted disguise by claiming they're championing the rights of another "oppressed" group straight white men, I digress...)

I find it hard to fathom that several decades ago women had enough power/political capital in society to enable us to have abortion rights and legislation to allow women to have a year of maternity leave and go back to work. What an incredible achievement that was. We'd NEVER achieve anything so significant now.

Paris14eme · 18/04/2022 12:12

Totally agree with you. You are not alone OP.

kinshasa · 18/04/2022 12:20

Black women don't reject feminism, please stop making silly assumptions.

Read works by bel hooks, for example. Learn why she used lower case letters for her name.

Black women really are weary of being told how to think by certain non black women who centre their own experiences as more relevant than ours.

Because I won't be lectured to by those people, who go on about safe spaces for women but can't respect a dedicated board on MN for black women, does not mean I'm not a feminist. SOME white women think they have the copyright on feminism. They don't, neither do they have to put up with the additional racism millions of women face .

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 12:20

@FiveNineFive
I respect your decision not to engage in discussion about trans rights on this thread.

I agree with other PPs that we can’t really get anywhere if the word ‘woman’ is taken from us, as with it go our boundaries.

I will just say that I support trans rights in the sense that I agree trans people should have the same human rights as everyone else.

If you are someone who thinks that extra trans rights have no negative effect on women and children, maybe just read this one single article loreleihatpin.substack.com/p/autogynephilia?s=r

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lameasahorse · 18/04/2022 12:24

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MagnoliaXYZ · 18/04/2022 12:29

I don't consider myself a feminist. I used to, back when I was 18 and studying sociology; I almost feel as though it was expected of us. But I haven't considered myself a feminist for a long time now.

I view feminism as anti-men, not as a movement which calls for equality but as something which calls for the superiority of women over men and I don't agree with that.

There are views which feminists as a whole seem to support which I cannot support.

Maybe I have had a very sheltered life and limited experience of the world (I'm mid-thirties before anyone thinks I'm young and have no life experience), but the men I know are generally good people, certainly no worse than the women I know.

kinshasa · 18/04/2022 12:31

@lameasahorse

Black women in Britain have their own feminist organisations, talks and conferences and activism. Just because you know nothing about it does not mean it is not happening.
This.
JoyLurking9to5 · 18/04/2022 12:33

@kinshasa

Black women don't reject feminism, please stop making silly assumptions.

Read works by bel hooks, for example. Learn why she used lower case letters for her name.

Black women really are weary of being told how to think by certain non black women who centre their own experiences as more relevant than ours.

Because I won't be lectured to by those people, who go on about safe spaces for women but can't respect a dedicated board on MN for black women, does not mean I'm not a feminist. SOME white women think they have the copyright on feminism. They don't, neither do they have to put up with the additional racism millions of women face .

Im glad you do not reject feminism. I would never have known some black women have a problem with feminism if i hadnt read it on here.

Obviously there isnt a hive mind for all black women or all white women. No one woman is The sole Ambassador for all who share her skin colour. But i know im not being "silly". I have read some very depressing posts rejecting feminism in the last 2 days. I am very relieved that you think it's a silly assumption and that it doesnt ring true for you.

purpleboy · 18/04/2022 12:34

I hate the trans issue, truly hate it. It takes up so much of our time we should be focusing on more important topics, however for many of us it is the fight of our lives, if men can now become women by just saying so then everything women have fought for is now meaningless, you cannot have statistics on gender pay gaps, you cannot fight sexism or discrimination, the list goes on.
Trans people have their own struggles, unique to them, they should have their needs met, they need support too, but that should not come at the expense of women, it should be separate and centered around trans people needs.

I've felt sad reading posts recently from black women feeling excluded from feminism, feminism should be for all women, and there should be room for all the voices at the table.
So for any black women who read this, I'm sorry and I'm listening to you, my women only organization has many black and brown women who I work alongside from the uk but also across the world, so I do have an understanding of some issues black and brown women face, but I'm always looking to learn more.

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 12:35

@lameasahorse

Black women in Britain have their own feminist organisations, talks and conferences and activism. Just because you know nothing about it does not mean it is not happening.
Can I ask whom this is for?

I am not black but I hope I’m sufficiently imaginative to guess at the double frustration of experiencing sexism and racism. The particular prejudice aimed at high-profile black women is often clear to see.

I think the discussion of black women came up because one of the ways people try to discredit feminism is by saying it’s “only for middle class white women”. It’s really hard to counter this sort of bizarre accusation.

Some people have engaged with this and talked of black women “rejecting feminism”. Clearly this isn’t true, but someone, somewhere has suggested it. It’s a divisive tactic designed to undermine all women and feminism.

Feminism is for all women.

This does not remove the need for black women to have their own, separate MN topic.

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lameasahorse · 18/04/2022 12:37

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ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave · 18/04/2022 12:40

What depresses me most is how men have convinced a swathe of women that prostitution and porn is "empowering" and "sex work is work". So many feminists my age have swallowed it (no pun intended).

AlisonDonut · 18/04/2022 12:41

@Fiftythreepercent

I don’t necessarily agree with all of your list above but it’s good to get the list out there.

Young women today, probably rightly, are focused on personal safety but when they get older the biggest challenges will be in the world of work and pay gaps and lost promotion opportunities.

MN feminism is dominated by the transgender agenda. I remember feeling resigned that, on the day that the FTSE 250 published their very first gender pay gaps, 24 out of the 25 top threads on the feminism board were all about transgender issues. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns

Presumably you could have started and posted on whatever thread you wanted to on that day?

It does my head in, people telling women off for not doing what they are failing to do themselves.

If you want it, do it. If not, don't tell other people what it is they should be doing.

WhenSheWasBad · 18/04/2022 12:41

This is what annoys me about feminism on mn. Endless talk about feminism means in todays society.

Actual concrete suggestions about reducing the gender pay gap. Or providing affordable childcare - nothing.

lameasahorse · 18/04/2022 12:45

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2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 12:49

[quote lameasahorse]@2TheLighthouse it is in reply to the comment that black women reject feminism. They don't. They reject many white feminist organisations who do not campaign on issues affecting black and brown women.[/quote]
Ok. Can you tell me more about which feminist issues affect black and brown women? I genuinely want to understand what is going on here. Our womanhood is what unites us, and our womanhood is what feminism is about.

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AlisonDonut · 18/04/2022 12:49

@WhenSheWasBad

This is what annoys me about feminism on mn. Endless talk about feminism means in todays society.

Actual concrete suggestions about reducing the gender pay gap. Or providing affordable childcare - nothing.

What are your suggestions for these?
TeaKlaxon · 18/04/2022 12:49

[quote 2TheLighthouse]@Fiftythreepercent
To look at it another way, though, the trans self ID issue is very significant to the salary and promotion issues you mention, surely? If ‘women’ no longer means ‘women’, then the statistics will disappear into nothingness, and we won’t be able to see where the inequality lies?[/quote]
Nope. Because trans people are a tiny tiny number, their inclusion in stats in accordance with gender identity will not be enough to significantly shape stats on pay and progression etc.

That’s a red herring I’m afraid.

Norma27 · 18/04/2022 12:50

I have seen a few posts lately where people believe men can be women and deserve to erase female single-sex spaces but then declare they will not respond to any posts.
That’s because they know they have arguments to defend the eradication of womens rights, protections, safety and privacy just because men have decided we no longer deserve them.
No debate is over, and light is being shone on what is happening.

HRTQueen · 18/04/2022 12:50

YANBU

When did kink shaming become a thing. It’s not normal and it’s very dangerous to have oxygen cut off from your brain intentionally when having sex but apparently it’s something we should understand and be respectful towards as some like it. Fuck that when women are dying from so called kink games

I’m concerned over women and girls not having safe spaces but it’s not central to my concerns

Norma27 · 18/04/2022 12:50

*they have NO arguments. Doh!

Fiftythreepercent · 18/04/2022 12:53

@AlisonDonut I did post on that thread

I support women’s progression in my organisation. I’d love to discuss and achieve more outside of work but not convinced MN is the home for this

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 12:57

@HRTQueen

YANBU

When did kink shaming become a thing. It’s not normal and it’s very dangerous to have oxygen cut off from your brain intentionally when having sex but apparently it’s something we should understand and be respectful towards as some like it. Fuck that when women are dying from so called kink games

I’m concerned over women and girls not having safe spaces but it’s not central to my concerns

To me, it’s all part and parcel of the same huge, depressing issue. The trans issue isn’t a separate, niche issue. It’s part of a drive to steamroller women’s boundaries. We’re supposed to celebrate each and every part of a person’s (man’s) sexuality or sexual persona. That includes all sorts of kinks and dangerous games. It includes rubbishing the ideas of safe spaces and boundaries.
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lameasahorse · 18/04/2022 12:58

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